I have enjoyed watching this conversation unfold, but now it’s time to turn it off. The mission of RealityRN is to help new nurses with the challenges of integrating into the workforce. My sense is that with each new comment, we are at the point of diminishing returns.

So, we will not be allowing any more posts on this article. Thanks for your contributions.

Dave Goetz
Founder
RealityRN.com

I have a vested interest in this, as my partner (and myself, by extension) suffered from an incidence of malpractice. She visited her GP, at a new clinic, who performed a non-clinically-necessary ECG on her, purely for reasons of his own. Needless to say, she found this rather distressing. I find it somewhat improbable that a female doctor would have done this, nor would my partner have been as embarrassed by it. While perhaps not nearly as awful as the cases that make headlines, if she needs medical care in the future, she will insist on being seen only by female staff – nurses and doctors – and I will support her in that fully. If you, as a medical professional, suggest she should accept care from men ‘because they’re not all like that’, I suggest you find another job.

I’m not trying to win with with wit with wit.
I’m just entertaining myself while you raise silly ideas.

Like this one:
You go by the facts and research, not guessing what the other person said
I’m not actually guessing what was said. I’m knowing what is right about her point.
I’m not sure what facts and research you’re referring to but I’ll see if I can dig a few up for you.

Fact: Male health care providers have abused their positions of trust and sexually assaulted female patients.
http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=1461

Fact: Females are 6 times more likely to be raped than males.
http://www.aafp.org/afp/980915ap/petter.html

Fact: A sexual assault occurs once every 6.4 minutes in the United States.
[ibid]

Fact: Some of those assaults are carried out by medical staff in the course of giving ‘care’.

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1207/478271.html

http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/health/doctor-sexually-assaulted-teen-in-hospital-$1121088.htm

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-48027956.html

These are the facts.

Please supply me with some facts about how gender-specific nursing has caused the poor male nurse to suffer a lifetime of PTSD?

Your assertion that this is about ’sexism in nursing’ is atrocious. You have clearly no idea – and I pray you never have to find out – what it is like to be a survivor of sexual or sexist abuse.

All minorities have had to fight for equal rights and status with their minority status finally put aside and not considered by the general population
So what are survivors of abuse if not a minority group?
Are they allowed to stand up and assert their perceived right?

Already disempowered, devalued and desecrated.
Often traumatised beyond the consolable.

As I stated before, doctors took sexism out of medicine and the nursing profession needs to do the same
No they haven’t.
You’re talking out ya butt.
And where’s your research and evidence?

Patients can still request a male or female GP or attending. They can also still refuse care from anyone last time I checked.

Until nurses take a stand..

Oh purrrlease.

As was said earlier by MCKean:
If male nurses want to be trust by women patients they have to change they way women are treated by health practioners from top to bottom.

Don’t take a stand.
Take a seat.
Read, think and learn.

This is what you are saying:

Because you feel unfairly and sexist-ly treated, you want to tell women they have no right to health care unless they accept that a male nurse may look at them naked and touch them intimately.

Is that your non-sexist desire?

Although I could, I don’t feel like showing you line by line just how off the mark you are. All your remarks depend on your mind reading ability instead of what was said. And for you to seriously state you know how much blood is going to my brain is not evidenced based nursing in any way. It is a childish come back. Those with with wittiest comeback doesn’t win the discussion anymore than the strongest person in a fight means they are right. You go by the facts and research, not guessing what the other person said and then put down any one that doesn’t want to solve a problem in your way of thinking. As Sergent Friday would say “Just the facts mam”.

As I stated before, doctors took sexism out of medicine and the nursing profession needs to do the same and take sexism out of nursing. Until then, applications to nursing schools will remain to be seen as one for a female to fill out and the male is the exception. Doctors were professional enough to find a way to do away with that crap and nurses can do the same. Society now understands their doctor can be of any sex (extreme exceptions to any rule in life granted) and society can adjust to understanding their nurse can be of any sex. It is the nursing profession to set the example, not for the public to demand it first. All minorities have had to fight for equal rights and status with their minority status finally put aside and not considered by the general population. The general population never just handed it to them. Until nurses take a stand and say we are not about the sex we are, but about the quality of care we give, the general population will continue to see the sex of the nurse as an important issue. Be nurse enough to take a stand to get sexism out of our profession. You

I apologise to ‘the moderator’ for having to read and discern my posts ;o)

Response: My example was on topic of discrimination due to sex. I never stated her preference applied to lawyers. My statement was to see the sexism if lawyers were chosen by their sex instead of their ability. That is the very topic here.
I’ve answered this in the comment above. It’s a confounder. The argument is not at all about choosing between competence and gender. It is simply about gender preference.

My response: You need to read more carefully before you respond. You are putting words in her mouth so you have what you need to defend what she said and then you expect me to read those same words that she never wrote. So, please read more carefully before engaging your emotions.

I’m sorry you lack the ability to ‘infer’. Juliet is not ‘men bashing’ -
“I do however, see a place for male nurses…just as their is a place for male doctors – but they should NEVER be imposed on a female patient.”
Her decision to never want to see me as her health care provider is her choice alone. I have no problem with that. I have nothing to feel challenged about and I respect any patient’s right to make such a decision. I suspect it’s a decision she thought about and the risks (given the evidence of the Medical Board experience) has tipped her towards taking no chances.

My response: Fair enough, she stated psychologists had “spoken of the desire” to do these exams while having the feelings they stated.
Yes, but I’m not sure wether you’re able to understand the comments are made in the context of the argument – and this is not what she, the Medical Board or psychologists sit and ruiminate about all day.

My response: Her point said nothing of their qualifications to make these statements, you have stated this is what she was stating. As far as abuse goes, there is plenty of blame to go around. But, which sex has the greater amount of blame is off topic of this conversation so I’ll leave that for another time.
Having experienced Medical Board practise I would rather accept such an empirical opinion over your speculative one.
As far as abuse goes – it is not at all off topic.
Abuse is probably the greatest reason females would elect female health care provider. That and simple sense of dignity.
Doesn’t mean women who accept male health care providers have no dignity. We’re all different in our values.

My response: Why would a psychologist without a PhD be at a medical board meeting? Are they even covered under the medical board to begin with?
I actually would accept it is most likely the psychologist at the Medical Board would have a PhD. Tho it’s not a given.
I’m not sure what you are getting at with being ‘covered’ by the Medical Board. I don’t think you understand what the Medical Board even is.
They are there to carry out a function of psychology advisor to the Medical Board. They are not ‘under’ the Medical Board they ARE (part of) the Medical Board.
Your BON will also have ‘advisors’ who are not part of the profession – they are part of the process.

My response: What Juliet wrote and what you wrote have nothing to do with each other unless I’m to believe your version of her story over the one she gave.
I think you fail to understand by lack of knowledge or experience what was written behind Juliet’s lines. I’m sure she could supply more detail – as could I – but really it isn’t something that needs to be aired publically. But essentially, there are some evil people in the world. Some of them are placed in a position of trust, authority and power – which they then proceed to abuse.

My response: Let’s have it big guy…
Now you’re being sizeist

My response: Are you stating a woman, if anything, is a cow? I don’t think you are being very nice there.
No, I’m stating your foot is on fire.

wtf?

My response: You didn’t read her comment properly.
The word SOME was not there – I added that – it was a presumption of fact that Juliet does not believe all men are evil sex crazed monsters. Tho her previous comment: I do however, see a place for male nurses…just as their is a place for male doctors – but they should NEVER be imposed on a female patient. would suggest she isn’t being a radical feminist.
Or raving lunatic.

My response: You could get off of this one if you would just go back and read her comment again.
I think you have to work on your ‘comprehension’ skills.

My response: I don’t feel embarrassed. I think I would have to feel embarrassed before being possible to embarrass myself. However, if you are trying to put thoughts in other reader’s heads, you might have succeeded, but I wouldn’t know without asking them in the same way you wouldn’t know if I have embarrassed myself without asking me.
Most scary.
Indicative of concrete thinking, egocentricity and lack of emapthy.
Your 15% towards sociopath.

My response: You are a male nurse stating you are invested “with a certain power”. I’ll leave that one to your own reflection. and a possible line for a “super hero” to use in a comic book.
Again, not sure wtf you’re on about.
My gender has nothing to do with the process of AMHP work. There are as many female AMHPs.

My response: My professional qualifications demand by law that I delegate the most qualified person to do the job. Doing any less would not be following the nurse practice act in the state I practice in. This is a legal agreement I’ve made with the citizens of my state in exchange for the privilege to hold a licence and practice as a nurse.
Here we go again –
Two nurses – both comeptent….
Your Code of Ethics also demands you consider the patient’s right of choice.
Since you recognise your position is one of privilege – can you work out who gives you that privilege?

My response: Where dd I say that? Maybe you need to read my comment again.

Your comment:
“Who would go through medical or nursing school so they could get a sexual/power gratification from preforming a pelvic or breast exam and then throw their education away by bragging about it to an attorney?”
Are you suggesting that anyone who goes through med/nurs school is not going to be a sexual predator ever?
Are you really this naiive?

My response: I guess “demonstrably and utterly deplorable ignorance of any understanding of the issues” would depend on how you look at things. I guess I could come back with “I know you are, but what am I”, but why don’t we just drop this one.
We don’t drop this one because it’s all about values and attitudes.
Yours stinks.

My response: My debate is competence does not depend on gender.
Well fine – go have that debate on your head on your own.
No one else is having that debate.

My response: It would depend on the staff available that day. It could be the male or the female. It is these differences in abilities between staff that nurses are required by law to delegate the best person for the job.
And gender is also a consideration, right?

My response: You are getting a little carried away here. All my statements are about quality of care given, not sex of the caregiver, being the best predictor of outcome.
Are you sure you’re in the right thread?
Maybe it was me?
Is this the ‘Confronting nursing competencies myth’ thread?

My response: You are digging here. Show me where I stated anywhere that I felt female nurses are incompetent any more than males. If you read my comment again you might see this is a fabrication in your own mind to win an argument instead of discussing the issue.
It’s an extrapolation – not a fabrication.
Given two competent nurses, one male one female…

My response: This difference in competency is why nurses are given the legal responsibility to delegate. Maybe I’ll discuss what responsibility is later.
No one is disputing or even discussing a nurses legal responsibility in delegating.
(*checks thread topic again*)

Response: Some might say I should hold off and bet so I could take your money before answering, but I’ll just tell you up front I’ve never felt any nurse was the most competent at all nursing tasks. Each having our own strengths and weaknesses is why delegation is part of a nurses responsibility.
Cool answer.
I’m guessing you don’t get delegated “Ethics in Nursing”?

“(I have typed this slow as I don’t think you can read very fast)”
My response: I’m assuming this is a joke to end things off with?

No, I’m deadly serious.
I’m thinking your blood is simply rushing to the wrong place when you get all excited (as is the “male” condition) and you’re experiencing a transient case of ’stupid’ caused by lack of oxygen to the brain.

bryn: I’m surprised by your comments. You’re invalidating someone else’s experiences +/or beliefs.

NFGS: Your entrenched position is clear.
However, you have confounded the issue by injecting ‘competence’ as being a salient feature.
No one has suggested they would prefer an incompetent nurse so your ‘most competent’ argument is redundant.
In it’s most simplistic form:
If given two competent nurses to delegate to deliver patient care – one male and one female – and the patient requests a female – would you do use that information in your decision?
That’s all is being asked.
I am presuming you would accommodate the patient.

Or are you suggesting in these circumstances the patient is merely being sexist – rather than exercising choice?

The extension of the argument is – how far should we go to do what we do in the simple version?

We have two individuals with their own identity.
One woman.
One male nurse.

The dilemma:
“Woman” asserts the right to choose what gender person attends her care – especially intimate care.
“Male nurse” asserts the right to practise nursing on whatever gender they are presented with – gender sensitivity is irrelevant.

The woman has stated – in emergencies and where practicality simply will not allow – they understand and are more grateful to be alive than to have been devoid of care over a ‘gender issue’.

“Male nurse” has stated – and so you should be.

Where you and I are failing to agree – is that I understand the imposition male health care presents to female patients; whereas you understand the decision for a female patient to not want a male staff to be sexist.

The patient is voluntary. This is not a contract.

Indeed, if they were Indian and preferred an Indian doctor – I would see to doing it as far as reasonably practical. I would do the same for male patients wanting male doctors or nurses.

Indeed, I would do the same for white ‘English is my first language’ patients wanting white ‘English is my first language’ doctors. Unfortunately this is mostly seen as being racist – and perhaps sometimes is – but the patient makes a choice. If they do so politely and without malice, then I don’t see why not.

Perhaps I am being judgmental on you but I see your trenchant views on women to typically display the blinkered ignorance of the facts that that females remain a vulnerable group; they continue to suffer oppressive bigotry and are far more likely to have been sexually abused as a child/adolescent/adult than a male.
Being a woman, even today, still comes with a clearly disproportionate imbalance.

Do your knuckles drag when you walk upright?

Or are you still working on “upright”?

I didn’t think would comment again, but I wanted the enjoyment of responding to your assessment of me:

1. Juliet has not stated anywhere that sexual preference applies to choice of lawyers. She, at least, has remained on topic.

Response: My example was on topic of discrimination due to sex. I never stated her preference applied to lawyers. My statement was to see the sexism if lawyers were chosen by their sex instead of their ability. That is the very topic here.

2. Juliet has also stated – (and Bryn – you kinda mis-read the point Juliet was making I think) – that psychologists have discussed with her how SOME men have the desire to control and have power over women, access and opportunity, sexual/power gratification conducting pelvic and breast exams and even men who dislike or hate women… and that THOSE men seldom change.
Juliet is not disclosing anything from any client she spoke to – she was relating what psychologists had told her.
Please read more carefully before engaging your emotions.

My response: You need to read more carefully before you respond. You are putting words in her mouth so you have what you need to defend what she said and then you expect me to read those same words that she never wrote. So, please read more carefully before engaging your emotions.

3. Likewise – your whole point about psychologists not doing pelvic exams etc – Juliet never said that.

My response: Fair enough, she stated psychologists had “spoken of the desire” to do these exams while having the feelings they stated.

The study of sexual offending falls heavily under psychology – forensic psychology. They have spent many years studying the behaviour of men (and women) in violence and sexual (and sexually violent) behaviour. If you think the psychologist is wrong with what s/he said – that men can be sexually deviant and tend to remain so – then go ahead – tell the world.

My response: Her point said nothing of their qualifications to make these statements, you have stated this is what she was stating. As far as abuse goes, there is plenty of blame to go around. But, which sex has the greater amount of blame is off topic of this conversation so I’ll leave that for another time.

Incidentally psychologsists are not all PhD.

My response: Why would a psychologist without a PhD be at a medical board meeting? Are they even covered under the medical board to begin with?

4. What the psychologist explained to Juliet is true. I know. I’ve worked with them and the guy who helped devise and pilot the SVR20 – “Sexual Violence Risk” questionnaire for use in sexual offenders.

My response: What Juliet wrote and what you wrote have nothing to do with each other unless I’m to believe your version of her story over the one she gave.

5. Cripes – I could go on forever about your post…

… so I will…

My response: Let’s have it big guy…

6. The man would be seen as the pig he was acting like. She is talking like the same pig.
Actually, if she were she’d be a sow, not a pig. Not that you’re being male chauvinist by reassigning her gender. Well not much.

My response: Are you stating a woman, if anything, is a cow? I don’t think you are being very nice there.

ok.. a fair bit.

7. I’ll answer this in two parts:
Who would go through medical or nursing school so they could get a sexual/power gratification from preforming a pelvic or breast exam and then throw their education away by bragging about it to an attorney?
You didn’t read the comment properly.

My response: You didn’t read her comment properly.

Her story does not add up in any way.
You didn’t read the post properly.

My response: You didn’t read her comment properly.

8. In case you missed that – You didn’t read the post properly.

My response: You could get off of this one if you would just go back and read her comment again.

9. (You’ve fairly embarrassed yourself to be honest with your ignorance)

My response: I don’t feel embarrassed. I think I would have to feel embarrassed before being possible to embarrass myself. However, if you are trying to put thoughts in other reader’s heads, you might have succeeded, but I wouldn’t know without asking them in the same way you wouldn’t know if I have embarrassed myself without asking me.

10. She has, for whatever reasons she doesn’t tell us, very serious mental health issues that need to be addressed so she can function in society without making such claims that she is an attorney and such claims people in the medical profession would feel this way and bold enough to make such statements.
Fortunately, I am an Authorised Mental Health Practitioner – which kinda invests me with a certain power (and responsibility – I’ll teach you that word next time).

My response: You are a male nurse stating you are invested “with a certain power”. I’ll leave that one to your own reflection. and a possible line for a “super hero” to use in a comic book.

As such an AMHP – I am confident to suggest… strike that from the record…. I will tell you – Juliet is not the one who appears to have the mental health problem.

You appear to have some sort of “sense of entitlement” that your professional qualification permits you to determine who does what to someone else.

My response: My professional qualifications demand by law that I delegate the most qualified person to do the job. Doing any less would not be following the nurse practice act in the state I practice in. This is a legal agreement I’ve made with the citizens of my state in exchange for the privilege to hold a licence and practice as a nurse.

You also appear to have a “My Doctor is a God complex” and they can do no wrong.

My response: Where dd I say that? Maybe you need to read my comment again.

What is most scary is that – with your demonstrably and utterly deplorable ignorance of any understanding of the issues – you are still allowed to function as a nurse.

My response: I guess “demonstrably and utterly deplorable ignorance of any understanding of the issues” would depend on how you look at things. I guess I could come back with “I know you are, but what am I”, but why don’t we just drop this one.

Just as a final query to your rants…

We were debating ‘gender’ – not nursing competence – but anyhow….

My response: My debate is competence does not depend on gender.

You are suggesting that preventing a male nurse from attending a female patient is potentially not allowing her to have the most competent practitioner?

My response: It would depend on the staff available that day. It could be the male or the female. It is these differences in abilities between staff that nurses are required by law to delegate the best person for the job.

Is that based on some belief that male nurses are more competent than female nurses?

My response: You are getting a little carried away here. All my statements are about quality of care given, not sex of the caregiver, being the best predictor of outcome.

Are you also suggesting that in fact – since I thought a nurse was a nurse was a nurse – that female nurses are incompetent?

My response: You are digging here. Show me where I stated anywhere that I felt female nurses are incompetent any more than males. If you read my comment again you might see this is a fabrication in your own mind to win an argument instead of discussing the issue.

Any nurse attending a patient – whether male or female is either competent or incompetent.
If someone ‘more competent’ should attend then you are stating the other nurse is incompetent.

My response: This difference in competency is why nurses are given the legal responsibility to delegate. Maybe I’ll discuss what responsibility is later.

I bet you think you’re the most competent nurse ever ever ever, huh?

Response: Some might say I should hold off and bet so I could take your money before answering, but I’ll just tell you up front I’ve never felt any nurse was the most competent at all nursing tasks. Each having our own strengths and weaknesses is why delegation is part of a nurses responsibility.

(I have typed this slow as I don’t think you can read very fast

My response: I’m assuming this is a joke to end things off with?