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Provocative Topics
Confronting Male Nurse Myths
How to professionally handle the stereotypes.


You’re about to begin your first shift as an RN.

Your gut tells you that the moment you walk through those doors in uniform, people will judge you. Why? Because you’re a man.

In training, you may have been exposed to the modern stereotypes of the male nurse. According to Jerry R. Lucas, RN, and owner and publisher of Male Nurse Magazine (http://www.malenursemagazine.com/), “Either you are a homosexual or a med-school dropout. That’s the only reason you’d go into nursing, right? This is the male nurse stigmatism that’s been around for years and is still present in the nursing environment. You can’t just be a male with a desire to treat people in a stable occupational industry.”

Following are the unique situations male nurses face—and practical advice for handling the stereotypes.

Reverse Sexism
When women were denied the opportunity to go to med school, nursing was an avenue for gaining power in a white male world that ran everything. Times have changed, but there are still seasoned nurses in the industry who feel male nurses are trying to enter the female nursing safe-place and take over. Some feel afraid to give up their place of power, and they view male nurses as a threat. This may seem unrealistic, but instances today would prove otherwise.

“Recently I received an e-mail from a gentleman attending a college for nursing,” says Lucas, “telling me that because he was paying for school, he wanted the same education as everyone else. However, one of his instructors set up a clinical site at a battered woman’s shelter. The policy of the shelter was that no males could enter. Even though this young man was supposed to go to the site and was paying for the project, they weren’t going to let him in.

“He approached the clinical instructor about the bias, and she said, ‘It’s because of people like you that my breast cancer came back.’ Nursing is a tough world for men. There are female nurses that just don’t want them there.”

The Homophobic Patient
Male nurses also have to deal with homophobic male patients. If a man is about to have surgery and his male nurse enters to prepare by shaving certain areas of his body, many homophobic patients throw a fit. Male nurses have to be prepared for this response.

The best solution is to reassure the patient that you are a professional providing health care. If he can’t acknowledge that and refuses your treatment, there isn’t much you can do.

Let the patient know that he/she will have to wait until a female nurse is available.

Female Patient Care vs. Dateline NBC
Also working against male nurses is the media’s portrayal of men as sexual predators. From Dateline NBC to deodorant commercials claiming men think about women every 30 seconds, the media targets men. That tends to distort even further popular perceptions of male nurses.

When parents bring their 16–year-old daughter to the hospital and find that a male nurse will administer a procedure, such as a catheterization, media-driven images flood their mind. Some panic.

Jerry Lucas offers this advice: “I sit down and explain how long I’ve been at this job. I try to relate to the parents. I may say, ‘I have four daughters of my own. I wish I could find you a female nurse, but everyone’s backed up. In order to make sure we’re doing the appropriate thing--getting your daughter cared for as quickly as possible--I need to do this procedure.’ I also welcome them to stay in the room.”

Though popular perceptions seem biased, as a male nurse, you will need to go through that extra step of explaining why you, a male nurse, are assisting the patient instead of a female nurse. You will need to ensure female patients that you are a professional. It takes more time, but it generally will ease their minds.

In the future, the ratio of male-to-female nursing professionals may improve, but for now, as male nurse, you are in the minority. And you are different than what is expected.

Rise to the occasion. Maintain your professionalism with patience and maturity.


Read more Provocative Topics articles

92 Responses to “Confronting Male Nurse Myths”

  1. Lindsey Says:

    I understand to some extent how a male nurse could be considered “abnormal”. Just like it’s sometimes different to see a female COP. It’s just not what some people are used too. However, I do not believe that it is right to have such bias opinions. In the article above, it states that some parents panic to see their daughter being cared for by a male nurse. Isn’t this the same as having a male doctor? Or what about male gynecologists? And what about the demand for male teachers? Can’t those male teachers become “dangerous” (being a sexual predator) to his students just as easily as with his patient? Being a male nurse is completely okay in my opinion and should be considered “normal”.

  2. Sara Merritt Says:

    After reading this article, I can understand how a male nurse would feel unsure about being a nurse since the majority of nurses are always females. But in so many more cases, it is opposite, when females are the one “abnormal.” For example you do not think of a female usually being a fire fighter, or a police officer, or a race car driver.. I do not think that people should think it is unsual for there to be male nurses, as I think that people should limit women in what they are able to do. But society does not always change their views because it is not fair.

  3. Toby Says:

    As a woman, who has had many male doctors, I am not sure I understand why people are so uncomfortable with this. Yes, I have requested a chaperone during a pap, but I also think it’s foolish of ANY doctor (or medical professional) to not have a leg to stand on when s/he is performing something so personal and easily misconstrued.

    It’s unfortunate that parents are weird about male nurses. As a mom to two boys, I’d be happy to have a few more of them around. It’s sometimes difficult for me to relate problems to females that do not completely know about a male problem. And as my boys get older, I’m sure they’d appreciate being able to speak to another guy, instead of a “girl” who might not get the big picture. HOWEVER, as a parent, if my child is at an age where I believe I could help make a better decision, you can bet I’ll watch every medical professional like a hawk; male, female, black, white, short, tall, skinny or round. That’s just good parenting, I think.

    I am sorry to hear that men have such a hard time in this profession. Other men need to get over their homophobia. A job’s a job. Especially one concerning your health care. This person is trying to help take care of you, and you are worried about him getting too close before a medical procedure? Something is wrong with this picture, I think. As the author of the article stated, the best way around this is to address the situation professionally, and stay professional…even in the face of ignorance.

  4. lorraine Says:

    I appreciate your insights on how to deal with some of the stereotypes male nurses face. I teach English in Japan and have several wonderful male nursing students. Unfortunately for them, the field of nursing is very much a female profession and they do not have access to good role models. One of my students came in today and shared his concerns about dealing with his female classmates and their shameless comments and behaviors towards him and his two male classmates. I am definitely passing this article on to him and hope he will join some of the great sites I found specifically for male nurses.

    Continue to share practical insights. . .I want to see more men enter the profession here in Japan. Unfortunately, not all of them can read English well. That is why I want to pass articles like yours to those who are good in English so they can begin feeling supported. . .even if it is not from their Japanese colleagues.

    (A female reader)

  5. nursingaround Says:

    As a male nurse, I’m really quite dissapointed hearing about the male nursing student who complained about not being allowed to go to a battered women’s shelter.
    This student seems to think that as he is paying for his education, then he is entitled to do this. I’m worried about this man’s sensitivity, or lack of it. There are so many problmes with this issue:
    1. Whether he goes or not, it won’t make any difference to his career.
    2. It’s an outside agency, and the nursing school has no power to change the shelter’s policy.
    3. It’s not “Reverse Sexism.” It’s showing that you have a little tolerance and understanding. Perhaps if he was a battered husband he may be a little more understanding.
    4. It’s rather ironic that he calls the policy of the women’s shelter biased when it’s only natural that the women are biased as they’ve been suffering at the hands of men.
    5. Does the student really feel that he will be missing out on his education or is he creating a scene just because he can.

  6. Jerry R Lucas Says:

    The fact is that this is a case of “Reverse Sexism” because he can not go to a required setting because the person not the school set up this educational opprotunity.
    You have missed the point in that the student in this case was asking for the shelter to change their policy, he was just wanting to gain the same education as the rest of the class.
    your thought that he was doing this just because he could is insane and one reason there is not as many men in nursing, the thought that we are all doing this to control nursing is way off.
    Jerry R Lucas RN
    Male Nurse Magazine

  7. Rob Hamilton RN Says:

    As a male nurse, I have never once felt that I would be judged or looked at differently because of my gender. Who knows, maybe I am wrong. Maybe its happening all around me but I am just too proud and have no time to think about it. To be perfectly honest, I have not encountered one person who made me feel that I shouldnt be doing my job because of my gender. I think if I ever did, I would tell myself this. I am a 22 yr old male critical care nurse and I have the hardest job in the world. Hands down, it is the hardest thing to walk in these shoes. For all the male RN’s out there who experience problems because of there gender, remind yourself of the facts and the reality of things. Stay strong boys!!

  8. Gigi, LPN Says:

    My step-son, Chris,RN is a new grad nurse and works in the ER. He won rookie of the year just recently. He hasn’t been a RN a year. He’s not gay or a deviant–my God I never knew that anyone would really think that I’ve only been a nurse since 2002 and there were 2 male nurses graduate in the class before me. My daughter is a new Grad RN and works on the ortho floor. If we want to recruit nurses, then we better make room for this new generation that is for the most part tolerant of different lifestyles, doesn’t remember male dominated anything and takes womens rights as obvious. My son understands the patients, he as male has his own battles in the field, just like us females have our own unique ones–but those are supposed to be coming from the patients, not from our own-our co-workers. I’d hate to believe that there are “seasoned” female nurses who are making it difficult on our new male nurses–the days of burning our bras is over–now we fill out a grievance form. Thanks to the bra burners, but where our male RN’s as co-workers, let’s put the torch out!

  9. nursingaround Says:

    In response to Jerry Lucas, you seem to miss the point that I was trying to make. Complaining about not going to a battered women’s shelter is insensitive. I am not commenting on the tutor’s behavior. I am also not suggesting he is doing it to be difficult, but it is also a possibility that needs to be mentioned.
    As for equal opportunity in education, some things will not be the same. I’m sure there is something else that he can do to further his education while the women visit the shelter.

  10. RNJoey Says:

    I’m a male nurse and I think male-nurses are treated a bit better than the female nurses on the floor. I haven’t yet felt out of place. I do believe the female nurses tolerate a lot of abuse from administration and from some doctors, whereas when men speak, I often felt my complaints, concerns, findings, assessments are heard sometimes louder than a female. I know on my floor they expect you come in early, stay late, go to seminars, miss breaks, dinner, lunch and even not go to the bathroom and not get paid for the extra hours. I won’t, being I don’t work for free. If you want my services, you need to pay me for the hours worked.

    Just today, a patient BP went from 140/90 to 70/40, when I listen to his apical HR, it was very irregular. I called the doctor, the MD came within 5 mins, checked his BP again and then then ordered a bolus of NS, I told him first listen to his heart. He said.. oh yeah, thanks. Then he heard what I heard, We did a EKG and it had ST segment elevation and T wave inversion and read early infarct. We were a team. I have him directives, he gave me also directives and we stabilized the patient as a team.

    Of course there have been times when Docs, tried to be rude or tried to rush me with whatever, I tell them, hold off a sec, it will get done and a firm voice and a direct look in their eye and they know I mean business, then they hold back. I am never rude, but I also don’t take a lot of abuse, I see that sometimes my female coworkers do. I also never had issues with females or males not wanting me to do procedures or assess areas considered private.

  11. Alex Says:

    I understand where you’re coming from. It can be a problem. I mainly have anecdotal experience in this area. For example, when I was on the Postpartum unit during my OB rotation, a nurse informed me, “You don’t need to go into the patients’ rooms today. You can wait in the hall until my assessments are done.” I was pretty straightforward with her and let her know that she could watch while I performed assessments :) This caught her off guard, and by the end of the shift she told me that I was ready to do independent PP assessments. Heh.

    I do feel for you about the homophobia nonsense, too. Guys can be funny creatures. Granted, I don’t help the situation – I’m gay. But I come across that same stuff. And my sexuality has never been brought up with a patient. The advice in your post is valid, and I’ve seen it work plenty of times (“I’m a professional. I’ve done this before. I’m ultimately here to help you.”)

    Let’s fight on, men! And thank you to all the nurses who 1) don’t treat us any differently than other nurses, or 2) see the value of recruiting BOTH genders to the field.

  12. nursing student Says:

    I am a female nursing student about to graduate in a month and we have several male students in my program. What our instructors did in clinicals was have the male students ask the pts if they were ok with it before they did any sensitive procedures. They also teamed up a male student with a female student during the first few semesters of clinicals when it was probably the most awkward for them. I’m sure they still come across pts from time to time that request a female nurse instead, and I feel that is entirely reasonable. It is the pt’s right to have a nurse or a doctor that they feel comfortable with. Personally, I will only see a female gyno. That is my choice. In making my choice I’m not saying that the male doctors or nurses are perverts. I’m just saying that I am more comfortable with a female when I need to have a perineal assessment.
    On the other hand, our male students were actually given preference at times during clinicals. One day all the male students got to go talk to a male nurse anesthetist. I thought this was unfair because the females were not given the opportunity to talk to an anesthetist as well. The teacher didn’t even ask who was interested in that career. Looking back, I could see it as a way for the males to get to talk to a male role model about some of the struggles they may have faced that the female instructor may have had a harder time addressing. I still think the females should have been given the same opportunity, but maybe at a different time so the guys still got the time to talk about their own issues.
    I did have one question. What is wrong about asking a stronger male to assist with a transfer or positioning when they are needed? We usually only do this when we have an obese pt and we could really use the extra muscle to keep everyone from getting hurt.

  13. Tim Says:

    I’ve been a nurse for about five years, and I ahve run into some roadblocks being a guy. Mostly, it has to do with privacy issues: some women just aren’t comfortable with a man seeing them exposed. Other times it has been a cultural issue: most Muslim women will refuse me as their nurse, because they are not allowed to be touched by men other than their husbands (not totally clear on this, that’s how it has been explained to me).

    This really doesn’t bother me, because female nurses have things they have to deal with because they are women. I remember this one cardiologist who treated the nurses like property, and had a reputation for being a pig. I, however, always got treated with respect by him, and the other nurses were amazed at how he would look me in the eye when he would talk to me. He would even chat about sports and such. Why? The almight Y-chromosome. Be it known, he also listened when I stood up for the ladies on my unit, too.

    Medicine is still a good-ol’-boys club in many areas. I, for one, can’t wait until this changes. I can understand shyness, but there is no excuse for cheuvenism, IMHO.

    So yeah, being a guy can create some interesting challenges. But that’s the job. I wouldn’t do it if it didn’t challenge me, and I haven’t met a nurse of either gender that wouldn’t tell you the same thing.

  14. TheCannulator Says:

    It’s a simple as this. I’m not a male nurse.

    I’m a male who happens to be nurse.

    No one ever challenges me becasue my gender is irrlelevant to my care unless I decide because of the circumstances of my patient it is.

    It’s 2007. Time to grow up…..

  15. Jerry R Lucas RN Says:

    I would like to answer the writer of the letter to me Jerry R Lucas. Nursingaround You have misunderstanding of facts. The shelter was not a visit it was a picked clinical site. The student was told he could not go to the clinical setting and he was made to write a paper to replace his opportunity.
    In your first post you said that “Does the student really feel that he will be missing out on his education or is he creating a scene just because he can”. So when you say that you were not suggesting he was doing it to be difficult how else one can take it. So I do not think I missed the point at all. He was not being insensitive to the needs of the ladies, the point was that this was picked as a clinical setting for students but no males allowed. Now that is right to the point.

  16. nursingaround Says:

    In response to Jerry, again, if the tutor picked a programme that a male couldn’t attend, what’s the big deal? Everyone seems so sensitive in regards to missing out, or being singled out, just chill and get over it. I agree that writing a paper instead is a bit poor, but the school should be able to pick such interesting areas to visit, even if everyone can’t be included.

  17. MK Says:

    Can’t say I’ve ever had a problem with a male nurse…..unless he was an arrogant ass. The ‘almighty’ arrogant male MDs (esp. the foreign ones!) I’ve definately had problems with. I feel sorry for the male nurses sometimes…they always get asked to do or help with all the large patients.

  18. Mr Ian Says:

    I’m a nurse who happens to be male (thanks Cannulator :) ). I also work in mental health where being male is considered an asset over female (this is utter kaka too as women de-escalate better than men).
    I avoid as far as possible restraining a female survivor of sexual abuse even tho she may be lashing seven sorts of hell into me. Why? Because that’s what she went thru for years at the hands of an abuser. I’m not going to enforce that memory on her again if I can help it. I probably represent the very abusive authority that caused her head to implode in the first place.
    If Women’s Shelter forbids males – then so be it. It’s common practice usually. I see no reason for a male to invade the sanctity of a female refuge that is set up in such a way for the users to feel safe in their temporary home. Attempting to validate a “policy change” by saying that the student’s learning is compromised is (can I swear in here?) rubbish. (I deleted).
    If the male student requires to learn in a Women’s Refuge then I suggest he tries to source out one that actually permits it in their policy. I doubt he will find many (tho I have seen some – usually where the male worker has worked his way progressively as a trusted male) and is therefore further unlikely to need the experience for a job in one anyhow. The refuge service is there for the users; not the student learning experience and if he’s so intent on asserting his ‘right’ to invade their space and safety, then methihnks he’s not quite coming from the right point of thinking to be in that sort of place anyhow.
    We’re pretty quick to banish non-nurses from taking over our jobs (anyone go thru the HooHa of non-trained staff now doing sterile dressings or venepuncture?) or asserting our rights to autonomous professional recognition in the workplace as a homogeneous group and share common principles (anyhwere NOT got a staff room where patients are not allowed?). I accept their right to bannish me from their refuge on such similar principles of their own.

    Reverse sexism it is not – it is maximising of mental health in a time of crisis and despair by avoiding potential threats.

    If a 16 year old female needs to have a catheter and I’m the only staff available – I wouldn’t touch her till I had at least one parent in with me and expressed permission from parent and child. She’s a minor, vulnerable and I’m of the opposite sex to her when she’s going thru how many hormonal changes? If it was lifesavingly or pain-relievingly urgent (is it ever? I’m not a ‘real’ nurse – and I mean, I only do mental health) can’t I wait for a female staff member to be available?

    I’ve never understood the male nurses’ perceived “right” to perform on anyone. Just as a female nurse does not have that right. It just so happens our mum was a female and nursed us a fair bit. Dad used to fix cars and shout at the politicians on TV. It may be 21st century, but we’re still primitive in our natural instincts.

    Females ‘get away with it’ because we’ve relied on them all our lives to nurture and provide care (thanks Mum xx). In time, things may change naturally as progress is made. Forcing the issue does nothing for it but to make an issue out of it.

    As for the welcome invitation to stay in the room while my daughter was being catheterised by a male nurse, as a parent, I wouldn’t wait to be so patronised. I’d insist on it – unless I felt my daughter was comfortable with it and could kick hard and accurate.

    On “seasoned female nurses” (Gigi), as a student nurse I asked at the cottage hospital placement (small rural GP run place) if there was any chance of me seeing a childbirth. I never got answered and asked 3 times in as many weeks. When I had my half way review, I found out that my so called colleagues (female) had expressed concerns that, being a male, I was some sort of a pervert because of my request. I’d have preferred to have been told that the mother’s of the 3 or 4 childbirths had all declined to have me present. That, I could accept. Thanks colleagues.

    I once assessed an old chap at home who was having trouble with flashback memories of World War II. I was about 19 at the time and still wet behind the ears. He told me he didn’t need a second visit. I believe it was probably because I didn’t have the qualifications to meet his needs – ie no life experience. I didn’t take it hard – I used it to recognise; “You know what – he has that right and I’m probably not what he needs” Of course, it may have been because I was rubbish or I was so good he got cured too. I err towards I was too young. Doesn’t make him age-ist. Means I didn’t suit his needs. Patient’s have a right to discriminate if they so choose. It’s not illegal.

    As for problems being a male nurse.. oops… a male who happens to be a nurse… if the patient tells me they prefer a female; that’s their right. I have no qualms about it and I have yet to see a nursing council code of conduct that says my issues (or my student learning needs, Jerry) are more important than the service user.

    It was an interesting article (especially the subtle ‘Rise to the occasion’ closing remark) and certainly fired up some argument in the otherwise dull area of being a male nurse. However, “nursing student” seems the only one to patently point out the first commandment of nursing; that patients/users have a right of dignity and choice in their treatment. Shame oh learned ones.

  19. Paula Says:

    I have been in nursing for almost 25 years and the male nurse was pretty new back then….most of them felt uncomfortable with some of the care we were giving and I often wondered why they became a nurse. When asked we were usually told “the money is good” It was not unusual for a male nurse to get a female nurse to do some of his work because HE was uncomfortable not because the patient was. I used to tell them….I’ve been going to a male doctor for years and it isn’t a problem for me…so get in there and act professional and the patient will be okay whether you are male or a female…it’s a nurse they need”

  20. Jerry R Lucas RN Says:

    I am sorry so many have missed the big picture in this but, what was said is that the student that because he was the ONLY male in his class that he would not be able to take part in his education. I have been a nurse for along time and for you that are Males that are nurses well good for you. Many of the men that have come before your time have had to put up with a lot more than you.
    Nurses care for people no matter male or female yet today we still are not allowed in OB or aloowed to take part in some part of education because we are MALE. I have worked with some of the best nurses and most are female but, for some males out there it can be hell for them.
    So the point for you that are men that are nurses we still are at the bottom of nursing 7% and for us that do not want to be in charge, that do not want to run things or try to be asses, they just want the chance to do the very same job as the ladies in our profession.
    I do thank all of you for your response but, I have had to many stories that make more males get out than our female friends. but, in order to fix the problem we must understand what is the real issue.
    Do you think the student or the other that have voiced complaints are just stuck on male female or do we need to look at the fact that some are still pick out or treated different. So we have been trying to get more males int nursing yet, we have not been able to make that happen WHY?

  21. Mr Ian Says:

    Personally speaking, it took several hundred years of protesting to begin to resolve anti-female sexism and still hasn’t fully abated, so I’m not about to jump up and down on behalf of my male counterparts and cry ‘sexist!’. The global balance is still too far out of whack for me to feel I’m hard done by for being male in a female dominated profession.

    For an objective and considered answer to the question of “dilemmas facing males in nursing”…

    1. There will always be a gender issue in any treatments as long as patients are allowed to have a preference. I have no desire to remove that privelidge.
    2. There are advances in males taking on roles normally considered female only – eg male midwives. The general perception of those mothers-to-be who meet one have been generally receptive to the idea but it’s a big change in philosophy for staff and patient alike. Change takes time and this one will not happen over one generation.
    3. If a student or any nurse cannot accept that patients have a choice in who treats them, then they are in the wrong profession, male or female.
    4. Where logistics do not allow for a choice (eg only female nurses and patient prefers a male) then the service has a responsibility to improve that – not overcome the issue by changing patient’s belief systems.
    5. The most frequent ‘sexism’ of this nature I have seen in healthcare is between staff and not patients. eg using only male staff to deal with an aggressive patient.

    Overall, I think the shortage on males in nursing is because guys generally don’t choose nursing, not because the profession is making it difficult for them.

    It remains a perceived female role and requires certain basic qualities that are innate in females and males need to work on them; such as empathy, caring, relationships, communication and that general ability to manage thru all adversity.

  22. nursingaround Says:

    My Final Thoughts in regards to the male/female nursing issue.
    I want to tell one more story, which I hope you read. It may really give you some food for thought.

    As a student nurse, the school had problems finding a kindergarten placement for me. The kindergartens around the city didn’t exactly have a problem with a male nurse, but the parents whose children went to the kindy did. When I finally found a placement, I was warned by the women who worked there that if certain parents come to see/collect their kids, that I should try not to be seen. Some of the parents only sent their children to that kindy because there were no male staff. What is my point?
    The point is, we live in such a society where gender does matter. We live in a society where 99% of sexual assault victims are female. In an ideal world, a nurses gender shouldn’t matter, but this is far from the case.
    Now, when I began my first job, I received a letter in the mail saying I was accepted and was to spend 6months in ward 16. I had no interview, and I do wonder if the hospital management thought my name a female name. I was sent to the gynaecology ward. It was a job, I couldn’t turn it down, plus after six months I would be transfered to another ward.
    Now, every single patient in that ward was shocked when they realized they had a male nurse. Sometimes this was voiced to me, and other times the patient didn’t say anything, but you could tell from their body language, the look in their eyes, their tone of voice, their general discomfort, that they didn’t want a male nurse. Even when they said it was alright, most times they were still uncomfortable.
    Now, as a new graduate with this extra hurdle, I had a problem. How did I get around this problem? I began by being far more sensitive to my patients privacy than the rest of the nurses in the ward. For example, when checking a surgical wound for a abdominal hysterectomy patient, I would put a towel over their genital area, and make sure I only saw the wound. When assessing PV bleeding, I had a brown paper bag at the bedside they could discreetly put the pads in and I could check them after. Of course I would ask them how much bleeding they had, but we all know how subjective this can be.
    Patients did come to appreciate me and my efforts. I never once saw any of the other female nurses do the little extra things I did to make a patient comfortable. In fact, learning to do these things, was one of the best thing that came out of my time in the Gynae ward.
    So, when nurses say we are nurses first, and men/women next, I find insensitive. I wonder if the nurses who say this have given thought to the way society is. I know as nurses we try to be above this, but it must be taken into consideration.
    Now, as to my not catheterizing women. One nurse said “Why do you need a chaperone? Do you think you might do something bad?” The nurse who said this wasn’t thinking about the world we live in. A chaperone is needed, even the male gynaecologists need one, at least in New Zealand.
    This then brings up a practical issue. Why have two people to do a job that only one, needs to do. Why have a women standing watching me do a very invasive, intimate procedure on a woman, when I could be doing something useful to help her, while she does the catheterization.
    Another scenario for those mothers out there with 16 year old daughters. In many countries 16 is the legal age of consent, and you are considered an adult. Imagine if your 16yr old daughter was approached by a male nurse. You, the mother is not there at the time. It is explained to her that she needs a catheter. She is nervous, but gives her consent. Is she nervous about the procedure, well probably, but I bet she’s a damn sight more nervous about having a guy go down “there”. She’s probably so nervous that she doesn’t realise she can say no, even if you say that you can get a female nurse. How would you, as the mother, feel about this?
    Needless to say I would absolutely refuse to do this on a young, teenage girl, no matter what, even with a chaperone. It would not be right for the patient and it would not be right for me.
    I find it so strange to be called sexist because I care what my female patients think. I find it strange to be called sexist because I incorporate my values and beliefs in my care. Isn’t that what makes us good nurses, using our values/beliefs to help provide great care.
    For those who say that I shouldn’t be a nurse because I “Don’t do it all,” I say to them, Is there anything you won’t do because of your beliefs/values? And is all the good, the people that I have helped, the happiness and sadness that I have shared with patients in the last twelve years, is that now meaningless?
    I’m sorry to hear that I shouldn’t be a nurse because I don’t “Do it all.” I guess I’m just a failed nurse.

    A caring nurse
    Bryn

  23. TheCannulator Says:

    Bryn,

    Iobout being a failed nurse.

    You simply adjust you practice to the circumstances.

    If that 16 yo came in as an unconscious trauma patient and that is your job then thhat is what you attemtp to do-BUT you can still defer the task if you feel uncomfortable.

    It is a fine line between beliefs and values coming between our care…

  24. James D’Astolfo, President and Founder Canadain men in nursing group Says:

    There are many different problems guys face in nursing. The public image of nursing is one of these things others invlove educating the public and high schools and middle school students that nursing is a great profession. The CMNG is a national group in Canada, looking at these issues and bring them to attenation of the profession, please contact me if you are Canadain nurse, nursing student or international nurse.

    Cheers,
    James D’Astolfo
    President and Founder CMNG
    dastolfoj@yahoo.ca

  25. Marjorie Star Says:

    The nurse who commented about safety issues for women was completely on target.

    I was treated in an extremely cruel and degrading manner while a patient at a hospital. My experience included deviant personnel.

    I am now advocating that women who have been abused and especially those abused in a medical setting get the care they deserve. For me, that means same gender care for any intimate procedure.

    When humiliation is the source of psychological trauma, it would do a woman like me harm to be subjected to bodily exposure in front of strange men. Quite frankly, I’d rather be dead.

    I know there are many great male nurses. Gender is more important to women as a rule. Privacy rights are protected by the constitution in the US. Hospitals put employees right to work in front of privacy.

    Help us to help you–protect patient privacy rights. Thanks

  26. John Says:

    Marjorie nails the crux of the problem with her final paragraph. Gender IS more important to women and my deferal to a female whenever possible of exposing womens breasts or genitalia during my rendering of care is based on that and only that. I’ve not had complaints about me personally in over 25 years as a RN, but have had others I work with that have. None have come from “deviant behavior”, rather it is from the female sensitivity to their bodies being exposed to men no matter how professional. When another female is not available and I have to work around a womans breasts or groin area I make a obvious show of keeping as much covered as possible and am usually thanked for being sensitive to their concerns.
    Deviants, male and female (doctors, priests, nurses and teachers come to mind), will unfortunately be present in many professions and will contiue to give the rest of us a bad name when ever they are exposed because it is done in such a public manner and it should be to protect others from them in the future. The rest of us need to remember that it is a very, very small percentage and not apply it to the whole community.

  27. Nurse First, Gender does not play a part. Says:

    I’ve been a nurse for over 14 years. I’m also a male, when not a nurse. I’m old enough to remember when female doctors were rare and referred to as a “female doctor”. Doctors have been smart enough to out grow this as a profession.

    There are still people who describe people by color, especially if the person is “black”. Are we to all be respected, or go back to wards? Not many men would not have nurses if this were the case. Thankfully, it is not.

    Nurses should be assigned by ability and training to do an assignment, not by sex. I would not work at a job where my assignment was based on my sex or the sex of the patient.

    Until we are nurses first and last, we will continue to be a sexist profession that others will see as a reason to stay away from. For the nurse who lives in “the real world”, he should find a job where sexism helps and leave nursing for those of us not playing into it.

    The bottom line is we need to teach patients it is our skills that matter the most to their outcome and not the sex of the nurse.

  28. william harley Says:

    jerry lucas’ responses have soured me from ever sub’ing to male nurse mag….like the cannulator said, it’s time to grow up!

  29. Robie, RN Says:

    Bravo Mr. Ian! And I personally agree with nursingaround as well. I was required to perform a clinical rotation in a woman’s shelter while in under-graduate training. It was by far not the most memorable experience for me and I felt the clients were uncomfortable with my presence. I believe this was more a negative impact on them than a positive or rewarding experience for me.
    As a male provider, just as male physicians, I adjust my practice to fit the needs of my patients (ie: female & pediatric patients) daily. I also address/approach all patients differently based upon their cultural background, age, gender, etc. I think we can all agree this is necessary in our practice to make the patient feel at ease with us, trust in our competence, and receive the best care possible.
    Furthermore, I believe treating patients according to these variables is necessary to assure patient focused care and appropriate customer service.
    I have been a nurse for 15 years and always have a “witness” with me when performing a procedure/assessment on a pediatric patient that is not accompanied by their parent/caregiver. Unfortunately, as a male I do feel in the society we live in today this is necessary to protect myself against fraudulent claims.
    Also, I find it hard to believe Mr. Lucas publishes anything as his comments are very difficult to translate and follow.

  30. benny66 Says:

    As a man entering the nursing profession I have considered the way It may be perceived. My friends joke sometimes and I laugh along but when it goes to far I just say “Im doing what I feel I will be best at and Im doing something that means something to me.” I don’t think concern should lay with the sex of a Nurse but with the reasons why the nurse took that job. Im doing it because of experiences during many of my hospital stays that revealed to me that the doctor doesn’t effect your stay as much as a good nurse does. I don’t know how I will react to any back lash from patients I will have to over come that when it comes.

  31. Jerry R Lucas RN Says:

    I do love all the commits about me and what I practice. The story came from another nurse some one who felt left out but, like the profession lets attack the person that listens to what some feels is a problem. I to have been a nurse for more years than I can remember and I understand the fact that sex should have nothing to do with our job, but it is a fact that it does.
    The fact that some have stated “I would take some one with me to protect myself is how we deliver care today”. As an ER nurse I see the waste of Cat Scans, MRI, EKG’s and chest pain protocols just to protect a license. The cost of care is greatly increased to the patient not to us, so why not run this test and that test what is the harm. The answer is that it maybe that little protection we have to have will cost our patient their home or meal. It is this fact that will take away from our profession and the care we can give to patients. For those of you that do not like what I say, that is ok, but remember this I have only reported what is said to me by other. Maybe it is a fact that they have not all had the great experiences all of you have.
    As a nurse and father I have tried to get more men into our profession. To spend my money to improve our outlook and to try to solve problems that can bar both men and women from any employment. This has been at great cost to me and my family so you might want to give me a break or do as many in our profession do attack any one who does not met the mold.
    To work to save a life, to understand a patients needs, and to give hope does not come from your heart it comes from a love to do better. Please keep this in mind when you talk about me and what I have tried to do.

    Jerry R Lucas RN

  32. Marjorie Star Says:

    To Nurse First, Gender does not play a part….

    The needs of the patient are paramount> Someone who was abused in a medical setting or a victim of sexual abuse by a stranger and then needs to go to a hospital because of stroke symptoms does not need to complicate their medical condition by facing triggers that a strange male attendant might arouse. This, is to me, is akin to medical malpractice…to do the patient no harm

    There are 7000 deviant doctors practicing today and countless other people who gravitate to the medical profession. It is in the literature that doctors and nurses who were humiliated in their training pass it along aka child abuse.

    Sensitivity and bill like the one just past in Alaska to help prevent traumatized victims by hospital forcing employees right to work over patient’s contstitution right to privacy (USA)needs to be examined.

    Many of the practices considered routine cause psychological trauma to patients (ex. restrained and stripped in front of lots of people in the ER)

    Who decided that people’s psychological needs are less important than their physical needs?

    Patients need to be examined. Let’s do it in a private and respectful way.

    thank you

  33. Alex Says:

    As a newly graduated male nurse, I can tell you that the stigma comes and goes by the person. For the most part, the most guff I get is from the very very old nurses who are used to an all-female society, and male patients. I never got any flak from anyone in school and never ran into a professor who treated me any different than my female counterparts.

    As far as dealing with it, I simply rely on the stark truth. When I run into someone in medicine who tries to label me because i’m a guy in nursing, I simply tell them that they need to wake up and see that there are no gender specific jobs anymore.

    When I run into a homophobic patient (for example, one that has to be shaved pre-surgery), I simply tell him “look, I’m not gay. my girlfriend actually works here in the hospital. I do this job because the pay rocks and i get three days off a week. so how about we just get this over with so you can get fixed up?” Generally, that works, simply because a guy is gonna respect another guy who looks him in the eye and lets him know whats up without any BS. It’s not the entire truth of course, because the real reason I do the job is for the patients. But doesnt telling a little white lie to a patient to make him feel better count toward that goal?

    To Marjorie: there is a flaw in your logic. You suggest that a victim of sexual abuse or abused in a medical setting who needs to come in for stroke treatment should automatically be steered away from male nurses because it could “complicate their medical condition by facing triggers that a strange male attendant might arouse”. As someone who works exclusively in trauma (which is where stroke victims come to first), I can tell you that what you’re suggesting is not only absolutely impossible, but absolutely ridiculous.

    Sure, some people might not trust male nurses, thinking we’re deviants or whatnot. But let me tell you something, if I get a patient through the door suffering from a possible stroke, my last concern is to run out and check medical records to see if they are abuse victims so I know if I should avoid them. If they’re stroking out, my priority is to help save their life. After everything calms down and the situation has stabilized, then the patient could voice a desire to have no male attendants. But thats as far as it goes.

    I dont know what kind of super-hospital you work in, but in mine, we dont have instantaneous histories on patients. We dont know if they’ve been abused when they roll through the door. We dont know if they’ve had previous medical problems right away. Our concern is the preservation of life RIGHT NOW. If that means that a patient needs to be stripped down and/or restrained, it’s what we do to save their life.

    Next time you’re in an ER, go ask anyone if they wouldnt mind letting the next drunken abusive stabbing victim take their time undressing themselves so they can be examined, or even remain clothed because being naked would be too traumatic for them. See how hard they laugh. Then ask them if they wouldnt mind leaving said patient out of restraints while he grabs bag stands and anything else he can get his hands on and throws it at the medical team, or possibly removes his lines, or grabs his IV and stabs one of the team with it.

    Sure, patients need to be examined. Thats a given. But when the situation calls for something that might be what you labeled as a “psychological trauma”, thats just too bad. When life is on the line and time is the enemy, sometimes you cant put the patients wants before their needs.

    I have the utmost empathy for the patients I treat, but I dont want to hear someone complaining about being restrained in the ER after they tried to stab me during an exam that saved their life. Thats what we like to call hypocrisy.

  34. arpia Says:

    I’m sorry that this comment has nothing to do with the conversation that you guys are having however, I’m a male medic in the ARMY deployed to Africa and I’m trying to get my degree on Nursing, I’m currently taking a sociology class and one of my soldiers came up with a terrific subject “The Social Stigmatism on being a Male Nurse”, so I started doing some research on this. However, I wanted to know if anybody knows more about this and can steer me in right direction and also, I wanted to know how can I get the Bio of the person who wrote this article so I can reference it on my paper

  35. melissa Says:

    Here is Jerry Lucas’ contact info:

    erry started out in the U.S. Army as a 91B/Combat Medic. Jerry then went on to St. Philips College in San Antonio, TX an completed the LPN program. Later he went back to the Army to the 91P/X-ray tech program, and completed it with a Diploma. After which Jerry went on to Indiana University School of Nursing and completed the RN program.

    Jerry is Certified in ACLS, TNCC, ENPC, and CPR. Jerry also has certificates in training for, HAZ/MAT; First Responder Operations Training, Emergency Response to Terrorism: Tactical Considerations: Emergency Medical Services.

    Jerry R Lucas RN, Publisher
    10510 south state hwy3
    Deputy, IN 47230
    812-352-1293
    http://www.malenursemagazine.com
    jerry.RN@verizon.net

  36. Mr Ian Says:

    Alex

    “Sure, patients need to be examined. Thats a given. But when the situation calls for something that might be what you labeled as a “psychological trauma”, thats just too bad. When life is on the line and time is the enemy, sometimes you cant put the patients wants before their needs.”

    There is a common sense application of professional judgment that prioritises what considerations you give and when. Life threatening situations carry a higher need for intervention and less time for “niceties”. However, the argument stands that patient choice remains paramount.
    I am not sure how such places can lawfully restrain people for exmaniations – unless the patient has a diminished capacity.

    “I have the utmost empathy for the patients I treat, but I dont want to hear someone complaining about being restrained in the ER after they tried to stab me during an exam that saved their life. Thats what we like to call hypocrisy.”

    Utmost empathy… yet you don’t want to hear complaints?
    That would indeed be a hypocrisy.

  37. Mr Ian Says:

    Jerry;

    “I do love all the commits about me and what I practice. The story came from another nurse some one who felt left out but, like the profession lets attack the person that listens to what some feels is a problem. I to have been a nurse for more years than I can remember and I understand the fact that sex should have nothing to do with our job, but it is a fact that it does.”

    It would be nice if gender were not a matter of concern. It would also be nice if patients realised and accepted that nurses can actually do far more than they are aware and you don’t always need to “speak to the doctor”.

    However, and if you read your Nursing Code, you will find that the patient has right to be respected. So, irrespective of whether you think it right or wrong; good or bad; the patient has the final say – if they choose to have a female or male attending nurse (or doctor) then it should be facilitated. In deed – it should be offered – and not assumed.

    What seems to occur in health care is the clinicians become so myopic to the ‘functional’ component of the job (eg saving a life; inserting a catheter; wiping a butt) that they completely forget the inter-personal aspect of the role (touching someone in an intimate area; having 3 staff stand around a naked person; performing a procedure “on” a patient – rather than “with” or “for” a person.

  38. rk Says:

    John Says:
    April 15th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
    Marjorie nails the crux of the problem with her final paragraph. Gender IS more important to women…

    John — There’s so little research done about how men feel regarding intimate exams that I don’t see how you can say this. If you can cite a study or two that demonstrates this, let us all know.

    I will refer you to some research done by Catherine Dube in an article titled “Talking with male patients about cancer screening.” She writes:

    “Clinicians may hold certain assumptions about male patients that are not well founded. Clinicians may believe, for example, that men are immodest and unlikely to feel embarrassment during genital exams, don’t care about their health, are emotionally insensitive, and will seek medical care only if pressed to do so by a woman in their life. In our focus group research, however, we discovered that men were surprisingly modest about physical exposure in clinical settings, concerned about embarrassing exams, and interested in their health. We also learned that they desired closer personal relationships with their health care providers.

    Concern for modesty and privacy should be afforded to male patients, particularly in the context of potentially embarrassing physical exam procedures. Communication principles and practices that are commonly used to address the needs of women patients with sensitivity can also be used when treating men.”

    You can find this article at
    http://www.jaapa.com/issues/j20041201/articles/talking1204.html

    Men often don’t express their feelings. For many of them, it is more embarrassing to show embarrassment than it is to go through an embarrrassing, perhaps humiliating experience. As you suggest, women are more often asked permission before experience intimate exams or procedures by male nurses. Men are rarely asked permission by female nurses. Too many assumptions are made about men and how they feel regarding this issue.

  39. JAMES Says:

    Having been a male patient on numerous occasions
    I can attest that female nurses are the real perverts! Whenever I’m a patient again I’ll request only male nurses!

  40. rk Says:

    Well,James, I don’t agree with you. Most nurses, both male and female, try their best to afford privacy to all their patients. There is a double standard regarding men and intimate procedures and exams, but this is not the fault of regular nurses doing the ground floor work in hospitals today. As with every profession, there are some who don’t belong in that kind of work. But they are the exceptions.

    I don’t excuse the treatment some men get. But, most of the time, female nurses try to accommodate men by finding a male nurse. One of the problems with the whole system, though, is the there’s not enough communication. Most often, men with little or no experience with hosptials and doctors are suddenly confronted with a female nurse or medical asssitant working with the male doctor the patient expected to see alone. The patient is often neither given a warning about this nor a choice. That’s poor communication and, as far as I concerned, unethical medical practice. Both men and women should have a choice of the gender of their caregivers. That always can’t be granted, but doctors and nurses must make a good faith effort to do so. And that isn’t always done.

  41. JAMES Says:

    It’s irrelavent whether you agree with me or not.Remember, I am the patient and its all about me!

  42. Marjorie Star Says:

    Those of you who responded to my previous texts, thank you. It is important to point out that everyone has informed consent. As a coherent individual I have the absolute right to refuse treatment even if it’s to my detriment. The trauma experienced previously was so horrific, I would have preferred death. Until you have walked in my shoes, never say that you would ignore someone’s will. That’s the very attitude that says to me never go to a hospital regardless of the consequences.

    People who have experienced extreme humiliation would do anything to avoid that from happening again. You, who don’t understand where I’m coming from should take some psychological sensitivity training. Additionally, I’m not saying not to undress a trauma victim, but do it with sensitivty and privacy; not in front the the medics, police and every other unnecssary person.

    Loss of control and helplesness are factors that contribute to PTSD. let’s not complicate these issues with forced stripping to people who have previously been traumatized.

  43. minutemoon Says:

    There are several levels to this discussion. The obvious one, stereotyping of male nurses, is one most of us can agree upon. It shouldn’t be happening, but it doesn happen and male nurses need to learn to deal with it.

    Another issue, though, is focus. Where’s the focus, on the nurse’s feelings on on the patient’s feelings? Example — The parent of a 16 year old girl who doesn’t want a male nurse to cath his/her daughter, may have other thoughts on hand. How about the feelings, embarrassment or humiliation of the girl? In fact, why not ask the girl what she thinks about this? Just because a female doesn’t want a male nurse to do intimate care, doesn’t mean she’s necessarily stereotyping that nurse. It may mean she’s just not comfortable with a any male doing that kind of personal care.

    And how about this — the same applies to men. What about the non homophobic man who doesn’t want a female nurse doing intimate care to him? Is he stereotyping? Will his needs be met, or will he be called “silly” or a “difficult” patient? Let’s talk about that double standard.

    And don’t think that just using the expression “I’m a professional” will do the trick. When you’re doing that, you’re changing the focus of the situation from the patient’s feelings to your own feelings. And it’s not about you. It’s about the patient. I think we can be pretty sure that most patients regard their caregivers as professionals. It’s not about that. It’s about how the patient feels, their emotions and values. Their dignity.

    Many hospitals include in their mission and value statements something about respecting the dignity of patients, and their privacy. But what does that mean? How does one impliment that ideal on a day to day basis? Who gets to decide what an individual patient’s “dignity” level is? The caregiver or the patient?

    I’m sorry that male nurses are stereotyped. I’m sorry that women are stereotyped. But true professionals focus on the patient — and it’s not about “reeducating” the patient. That’s a bit presumptious, isn’t it? I doing that you’re assuming there’s something “wrong” about not wanting opposite gender intimate care. That’s as valid a value system as not minding opposite gender intimate care.

    Just some thoughts to ponder

  44. cali Says:

    James, maybe in your dreams.
    Your right, it is about you . Next time your a patient request only male nurses. FINE WITH ME!! lol hahaha

  45. Tammy Says:

    Male nurses are great to work with, they never PMS.

  46. MCKean Says:

    Cornel West, a great African American philosopher wrote a book called, “Race Matters”. Well, when it comes to health care, “Gender Matters”. It matters to female and male patients, it matters to family and parents. I hear male nurses complain, but male docs…. yet, also complain if they are asked or required to have a female “assistant” for an intimate procedure on a female patient. Something many docs these days at least ask they patient if they would prefer.
    I have read male nurses complain, “well if I am not the one who raped her what is the problem” in reference to a rape exam. I agree with the post from the male nurse who said he worries about a man’s sensitivities who would complain about not being allowed in a battered women’s shelter by policy. I have also heard male medical students claim that their right to an education trumps a woman’s right to refuse intimate practice exams from a male med students. He seemed to think patients should be forced against their will. I agree with the poster above who said, “true professiuonals focus on the patients”, and that “reeducated the patient is presuptious”. Thank you!!!! It just may be that the patient rejects male care because she is well educated; wise enough to know better. Female rape patients call the rape exam a second rape. I know for a fact that this can be done in such a way that that is not how it feels to the patient. It does require a general rule of an ALL female team, including officer and photographer amoung other things. Honestly, if a nurse cannot accept gender specific requests or guidlines (such as asking a patient if they would prefer someone of the same gender) with understanding, class and grace, without taking offense than that nurse should look for a new job.

  47. MCKean Says:

    BTW in emergencies, I agree with the poster who said, “sometimes you cannot put patient preferences before needs”, that is ONLY in the case of an EMERGENCY. You had better make sure it is an emergency, however; as violating such a request in a nonemergency situation is legal battery. Otherwise the patients requests should be respected, this means conform to the requests or negotiate with the patient if you cannot. You must aquire informed consent. Be honest with the patient on what her options are in terms of staff and experience available. NOT EVEN UNDER ANESTHESIA, should a patients requests be violated in a non-emergency situation. The patient will experience this as rape, in fact they have a term for it, “medical rape”. I have a hard time understanding why a nurse, student, or doctor would want to do an intimate exam against the patients will.

  48. MCKean Says:

    Marjorie,
    I am sorry they forced stripped you in front of a gang of men including cops. This should not have been done this way. Women are treated like crap in the U.S. by medical providers, cops, and courts. Yes, I think there are many perverts and patient abuses in medicine, male and female. There is an abundance of scientific research supporting that FACT!!!!

    BTW, FIY if you ever need surgery, be aware that while you are sedated they are likely to have several residents and perhaps even a gang of students perform practice pelvic rectal and breast exams while you are under anesthesia, before surgery. If you request an ALL female team, you will be lied to, a little
    “all girls” play performed, then you will be put under and the men brought into O.R. Male students will be involved in prep, practice exams, and the procedures. You may think you are not in a teaching facility, but med schools such as OHSU here in Oregon have infiltrated other hospitals who will even lie about students being there. Just a heads up!!! They only way to guarantee you are not violated as such, is to demand family presence and refuse care if not allowed. It is sick, but Medical care needs to be reformed in more ways than one.

  49. Justin Says:

    I have never heard open discrimination against males among the staff or faculty of the places I’ve worked or had clinicals.
    While I did my clinicals for OB , I was told I would not be able to see as much because of the whole guy thing. The staff worked hard to get me in to see procedures and other things like that.My OB rotation was one of the best expierences I’ve had in nursing school.
    I’m an extern and have never had female pts say anything to me.I conduct myself w/ the utmost professionalism.Even just being a student, the patients trust you, that you are giving them the best care.
    Oh and by the way,I have a job in the NICU when I finish school!

  50. Mr Ian Says:

    MCKean:
    “BTW, FIY if you ever need surgery, be aware that while you are sedated they are likely to have several residents and perhaps even a gang of students perform practice pelvic rectal and breast exams while you are under anesthesia, before surgery. If you request an ALL female team, you will be lied to, a little
    “all girls” play performed, then you will be put under and the men brought into O.R. Male students will be involved in prep, practice exams, and the procedures.”
    Firstly I can’t believe you simply put that out there as if it’s common practice everywhere and scaremonger anyone reading this thread.
    Secondly, as I don’t work in OR, if this IS true then I’d hope that you and others have done something to stop this abuse.

  51. Mr. Nurse Says:

    A lot of people missed the point of what Jerry R Lucas said. The Program which included both male and female students (by accepting their money)as determined by the school provided a learning experience, that the student did indeed pay for, in a place that the student could not attend. That would be like a structural Engineering class holding its lecture on pipe placement in the mens restroom and telling the one female student that she had to wait outside.

  52. bryn Says:

    we haven’t missed the point. He is paying for a service, but so are the rest of the women. Should the female nursing staff miss out on this experience… NO. Should the male nurse have some sensitivity, yes. Could he do something else? Could something else be arranged? Well of course something could. The original article doesn’t give enough of the whole story, making it inflammatory to suit the writer’s needs.

  53. Mr Ian Says:

    I do see the point Mr Nurse – and perhaps the student has a case against the faculty for the course design. However, I could not condemn the shelter for having it’s policy and I could not suggest that because a shelter precludes male nursing students – that female nursing students need miss out on the opportunity.
    There is a large amount of context missing from the scenario that might perhaps qualify things better – and I’m a little skeptical about comments like : ‘It’s because of people like you that my breast cancer came back.’
    But overall, and this has been my main contention; there is nothing special about male nurses that requires male nurses be given any special treatment. And there has certainly been (and continues to be) enough female discrimination to off-set one male student nurses singular experience.
    Does he not realise that as a male, when qualified, he is still more likely to rise to an authority position and to be taken more seriously by male doctors and to become someone’s ‘blue eyed boy’?
    I wonder then if he will step back and declare:
    “Oh no. This simply isn’t fair to my female colleagues”?

  54. the nurse’s wife Says:

    My husband’s floor seems to appreciate their male RNs. There are about 20% guys in the pool of 60 nurses for the orthopedic floor of one of the preeminent hospitals in the country. Both male and female nurses help each other out. Yes, a few women prefer, and get, female nurses. Most don’t mind.. and some older ladies actually prefer guys. On the other hand, when some male patient is lewd or threatening, he suddenly finds himself with a very large, unsympathetic, competent male nurse. My husband says you can almost see them think “Oh shit!”.

  55. MC Says:

    Hmm. Ever stop to think about how your desire to force yourself upon this clinic is not unlike men not taking no for an answer in other situations?

  56. Blake Says:

    Comparing that situation to rape is ludicrous. As mentioned earlier (as in a year earlier), female doctors once faced, and sometimes still face, the same problems as male nurses. However, they were considered strong to take the attitude of “doctor first, female second”. For any female doctor to be denied entry into an educational opportunity would be considered extreme sexism.
    However, should the shelter be forced to change their policy? Probably not. At the most, conditions could have been set where certain women were asked ahead of time if it would be ok with them to have a male student nurse in the room. But, for the student to complain that this was not set up for him was not wrong, and in fact was part of what broke the glass ceiling for female physicians.

  57. medicboy101@hotmail.com Says:

    As a paramedic of 13 years I went into nursing 3 years ago. I had reverse discrimintation in getting into the nursing program. I was leapfrogged ahead of several female students. During my education I had several instances of having female and male patients feeling uneasy with me doing mundane tasks. As I approached the end of my education I had patients wonder where I had gotton my maners with dealing with them when I told them I had been a medic and firefighter for my entire adult life and would treat people how I wanted to be treated they would usally change their tunes. As to the clinic opportunity I work in an ER and I am not allowed due to P&P’s to do rape kits on females, cath female patients without supervision and I am not given OB patients unless I have the only room open. This takes me away from the team concept of work.

  58. Jerry R Lucas RN Says:

    I am glad to see that the talk has continued and there have been many different points of view. The story that started all of this was from a student that felt his opportunity to complete his education was some what a miss because he could not go to the shelter.

    He did not want the shelter to change nor did he want them to allow him without question, his point of view was why the instructor would pick a place where not all of her students could take an active part. One person said that he could have had some other activity set up for him to complete his education, but again why would he need another activity if we are training students to respect all parties’ women and men.

    When the student complained about this he was then approached by the instructor and informed that because of his action it was the cause of her recurrences of her breast cancer.

    I have always asked my patient how they feel about my care and if they would feel better with a female. Am I up-set when they say yes that they would like that? “NO” I think that as health care and our economy go down we will all have to face what we feel is good for our patients but always remember patients are you and me so how do I want you to care for me.

    Please take the time to see some of my YOUTUBE videos the link is on my web site and thank you for not trying to make me out to be the leader of some movement to take the rights away from my patients as I care for people.

    Jerry R Lucas RN
    http://www.malenursemagazine.com
    jerryRN@dishmail.net

  59. Mr Ian Says:

    I think there is unfortunately still an essence of entitlement in your response Jerry that I don’t fully agree – nor disagree with.
    The student had a right to have ‘a’ placement. He had no right to impose himself on a place that excluded males for understandable reason.
    This in turn does not mean that female students should avoid that opportunity in the name of ‘equality’. There are clinical psychological reasons why a male is not permitted into a female safe house.

    Further, and on the issue of the instructor – there’s a possibility she had some personal connections or reasons as to her defense of the placement selection and if she did indeed apparently ‘over react’ – I would take a wider view of possible reasons why. I don’t suspect the student was able or would – but it rings bells for me.

    As to the “not taking no for an answer = claiming rape” point – @ Blake:
    1. Domestic violence is not just sexual and often cries of “no, please stop” are as much in response to physical and emotional trauma; so no one is claiming “not taking no = rape”. Abuse? Yes.

    2. Calling it ludicrous is disrespectful to survivors of abuse. Often it doesn’t take a lot to re-trigger old memories and scars and someone who requires a completely male-free zone in order to feel safe must have serious traumatic issues to deal with.

  60. bryn hagan Says:

    I have to agree with Ian Jerry, It was me that suggested something be provided for him. ‘One person said that he could have had some other activity set up for him to complete his education, but again why would he need another activity if we are training students to respect all parties’ women and men.’

    Your taking this whole equality thing to a stupid bloody level Jerry. Not everything is equal or needs to be equal. Why make such a big friggin deal. Why should the female nurses miss out on a unique educational opportunity? Why not have the guy to something different?

    Showing ‘respect to all parties’ Jerry means the male student nurse needs to respect that fact that there are some things he can’t be a part of, and vice versa.

    As for the whole ‘breast cancer’ comment. This is totally out of context. We’re given a tiny piece of text which is entirely inflammatory. Without the whole story, this point has to be disregarded.

    Get a grip Jerry.

  61. JAMES Says:

    Cali

    Mcdonalds is always hiring!!!

  62. Lynn Says:

    I have worked closely with only 3 male nurses in my career. One was in nursing school and when we graduated, he was hired at a higher pay scale than the other new nurses. The other two nurses I’ve worked with have been on both sides of the US, one west coast and one east coast…and they are two of the most caring compassionate nurses I’ve ever worked with. And I always feel better when they are around because they are men…lifting patients is easier, transferring patients is easier…and they have a way of putting the male patients at ease; especially in my field which is Endoscopy.

    I must comment on “medicboy101″…he made the statement about being “supervised” when putting catheters into female patients…I’m not so sure he is being supervised as much as being protected for his own sake. It’s the same situation as when a male Dr. brings in the nurse to be present in the room during a gynecological checkup. It’s for his own protection. And as far as not being allowed to be the one doing the rape kits/testing on females, I don’t know of any place where a male does the post rape exam on the female. That would be too emotionally traumatic for her. I have been asked to leave and get the male nurse with some of my male patients and I don’t get offended. Our job is to make everyone as comfortable as we possibly can; and if that means we have to step back, then so be it.

    As for the nursing student in the article, I think he has a valid point…the professor should have found a place where all of her students could have benefitted from the experience. At the very least, the professor should have set something up for him…it shouldn’t have been up to him to do it.

  63. alyssa Says:

    I wish there were more men in the field. I think that the “problem” arises from nursing being seen as a woman’s job in the public view. In my class of 87, there are only 5 males. Make that 4, we lost one yesterday after that EVIL HESI test. And now, thanks to budget cuts, he either gets to wait an entire year before continuing in nursing, or change his major. :( Sad day.

  64. Paladin, mobile intensive care nurse Says:

    One benefit of being a male in nursing is I qualified for a Minorities in Nursing scholarship by virtue of my gender in the field.

    Most of the patients I care for don’t see gender as much of an issue, but I do offer female patients the option of a chaperone if doing anything above the knees and below the waist. 95% of the time, I get a reaction of “You’re a nurse and a professional,” and they decline, telling me to do what I have to. The other 5% thank me for offering them the option.

  65. roberta Says:

    great conversations! as a healthcare consumer not provider, female, over 65, i will provide a sample of one who prefers to have a man examining her above the knees and below the waist rather than a woman. there have been two exceptions, my current PCM and an outstanding cnp/obgyn. but given the choice between an unknown male nurse or unknown female nurse, i notice that my expectation for older female nurses is to be impersonal and oblivious to who i am (by definition but in clarification). maybe there are no ‘older male nurses’, but my expectation of younger nurses is to be more attentive to my ground of being. that being said, should i ever have to go to the ER for a life threatening event and need a diagnosis or procedure where time is of the essence, please don’t hesitate to do what is needed with whatever qualified personnel are available.

  66. Mr Ian Says:

    Roberta,
    Thank you for a lovely post.

    As for older male nurses – I’m 40 now so if you can hang around a while, I’ll be with you shortly. :o )

  67. Nurse First, Gender does not play a part. Says:

    It has been almost a year from the last time I posted to this forum. My thoughts have not changed. Health care is a give and take. Many patients like to think a hospital stay is the same as a 5 star hotel stay. That is just not the case. If you want treatment, you need the person that can give it. I work for, among other things, a major transplant center. Sometimes patients with regilious beliefs say they can’t let a female be a doctor to them. They are all told to come back if they feel different. ALL of the patients stay and have female doctors. Sexism is not allowed. The only female that reaquested a female nurse wasn’t the one requesting, it was her mother. I think the patient found it insulting. She wanted a qualified nurse and didn’t think she had the right to tell the staff which nurse was better for which patient. I could see on her face she didn’t like her mother demanding her care get changed. Other patients have to suffer because of the staff going through report again, getting to know a different patient, etc. What about those patient’s rights? Part of the health care position to the patient is to tell them if you want quality health care, we have the right to put the best person on the job. We know who is the best more than you do. You can pick a private doctor in a private doctor’s office setting. Get much past that and your concern needs to be on the care your are receiving and the outcome you will have.

    To the poster that felt all trama victims needed to be divided by sex because (and you would not know who was molested before hand) the person might have been molested in the past. I would like to say to you, you have never been in a life saving situation. Evem on a general medical floor, if someone codes, all bets are off. The operator doesn’t announce overhead if males or females should show up. When I was a child I was taught to be modest, but never to worry about modesty in a healthcare situation or if the caregiver was a male or female. As it turned out, I was very modest in public and not at all when receiving medical care. It is the overwhelming odd circumstance when the patient should beable to tell the staff who is there to do what. Would you want a racest person be able to say which race they wanted because of how tramtized (this is a very real an would be a common practice if allowed) they would be to have someone of another race take care of them (or use their bathroom)? Of course not. We have all the reasons to allow racism, but we know all the reasons don’t make any of the reasons correct. The same goes with sexism in health care. There is very little, if any, place for it. I was recently kicked off a group for nurses on Facebook because I said men and women would have to be equal and a non-issue before nursing could ever become a profession to be proud of. For this I was given the boot. Racism, sexism, etc are all just stupid ideas that have no place in the work place and no one should have the right to come in and tell you they can make you put it back into your work place. The patient does not have all the rights about who gives what care anymore than they have the right to tell the doctor what medications to give them or which operations to preform. The health care profession makes these decisions. The patient can refuse and leave, but they don’t have all the rights.

  68. D Carter RN Says:

    I am on of the old guys in nursing. I have been practicing for 40 years. When I went through school I was the first male to ever graduate from the program.
    I have lived through the stereotypes and the real discrimination that was the norm when I started in this profession. It has improved through the efforts of those who treated our choice as a profession not just a job. We need to be mindful that we are professional nurses and conduct ourselves in that manner.
    As for the student that was not allowed to go to the women’s shelter, it should be the responsibility of the instructor to find a place that allows equal access.
    I don’t feel a personal affront if a patient voices a preference for who does intimate and invasive care for them. They are not taking issue with you or your skills they are asserting their personal preferences for who touches them that intimately.
    Over the years I have found in true emergency situations people are not worried about who does what but they are treated with respect and dignity.
    In situations where I have been a patient I have asked for specific Nurses based on competancy not gender. We as patients have the right to refuse to allow things to be done to us and specific people not be allowed to care for us. Again we should be professionals and act in a professional manner.

  69. Juliet Says:

    Personally, I believe men had a unique opportunity to prove themselves when the medical profession was totally dominated by men – instead we have a long and ugly history of disrespect, inappropriate behaviour and sexual assault.
    I find it ironic that now women have a choice and can choose female doctors, some men scrath their head and say, Why?
    You’re kidding, surely…
    Also, from a comfort factor I would never see a male doctor or accept a male nurse for invasive exams – in fact, after working at the Medical Board as a young lawyer, I have chosen not to see male health care providers for anything…
    I do however, see a place for male nurses…just as their is a place for male doctors – but they should NEVER be imposed on a female patient. (or any patient really – I know some men prefer female nurses and doctors)…
    I know in my years at the Board, there wasn’t a single case of sexual misconduct against a female doctor…
    I don’t believe men change just because they go to medical school or become nurses – I’ve spoken to psychologists at the Board who’ve spoken of the desire to control and have power over women, access and opportunity, sexual/power gratification conducting pelvic and breast exams and even men who dislike or hate women…

    The place for male doctors and male nurses – caring for patients who choose them of their own free will. When my father was ill with meningitis, he was nursed by two wonderful male nurses – they gained his respect and trust, so he was comfortable for them to wash him and help him in the bathroom.
    So, don;t despair – just go with the flow – be respectful and sensitive and you’ll find plenty of work.
    Good luck in your nursing career!

  70. bryn hagan Says:

    Nice post Juliet, a bit of common sense.

  71. Mr Ian Says:

    Who needs common sense when we’ve got this from Nurse First…
    The patient does not have all the rights about who gives what care anymore than they have the right to tell the doctor what medications to give them or which operations to preform. The health care profession makes these decisions. The patient can refuse and leave, but they don’t have all the rights.
    Under your ethos, they don’t have any rights.

    The patient has every right to say who does not touch them, as they have every right to decline medications prescribed or refuse operations.

    It comes down to what is ‘reasonable’. No one has contested that an in an emergency situation, gender is of the first importance.
    But where a situation is non-urgent, decisions should not be made on operational convenience or on the basis that some nurse thinks they’re being discriminated against by a patient.

    If the pt declines the op, the meds, or the gender of the examiner on reasonable grounds – it is the responsiblity of the provider to accede to those grounds and find a way around them. If there is no way around them – or the way around them exceeds reasonable effort, time or money – then it is again discussed with the patient and the patient then makes their own decision.

    Don’t forget who is ultimately paying for the privilege of you having a job.

  72. Nurse First, Gender does not play a part. Says:

    @Bryn

    You state Juliet’s post is a bit of common sense. My question is to what population? Her main point is men are pigs and she wants nothing to do with them.

    This is the very attitude nursing needs to rid itself of. Regardless of gender, we are nurses and should be held accountable against those values of competency.

    An attorney that does not think everyone deserves the right to a competent lawyer is unethical. She should be disbarred. She didn’t state she didn’t want men accused of certain actions, she didn’t want to represent men in health care at all. Is this not assuming guilt before being found guilty? What is a man told her he never wanted a female attorney, but “don’t despair – just go with the flow – be respectful and sensitive and you’ll find plenty of work”? The man would be seen as the pig he was acting like. She is talking like the same pig.

    I don’t believe, even if the man thought such a thing, that any man on the “Board” told her “of the desire to control and have power over women, access and opportunity, sexual/power gratification conducting pelvic and breast exams” for two reasons. First no male would say this to an attorney unless they had an attorney/client relationship (remember she doesn’t have male clients in the medical profession, even then she would be required to report such a statement to social service of out of fear of the safety of patients- this is the law, did she report them as an ethical attorney would have?) and the second reason is psychologists have PhDs, not MDs nor RN licences, so they would not be licenced to conduct a pelvic or breast exam. A psychiatrist (not a psychologist) is an MD, but would not conduct these exams either.

    Who would go through medical or nursing school so they could get a sexual/power gratification from preforming a pelvic or breast exam and then throw their education away by bragging about it to an attorney? Her story does not add up in any way.

    She has, for whatever reasons she doesn’t tell us, very serious mental health issues that need to be addressed so she can function in society without making such claims that she is an attorney and such claims people in the medical profession would feel this way and bold enough to make such statements.

    What part of her post was “a bit of common sense”?

  73. Nurse First, Gender does not play a part. Says:

    @Ian

    I didn’t say a doctor, without a court order, could force a patient to take a medication. My statement was the patient could not force the doctor to give the medication, nor could a patient force a doctor to do an operation the doctor didn’t feel he/she should or felt compedent. These are medical decisions, not patient decisions.

    Also, it is law that a nurse delegates work on ability of the caregiver to give it, not on the sex of the caregiver. This is the power the lawmakers have and have stated nurses have to follow, this is not within the power of the patient to make. That doesn’t mean, as in all aspects and walks of life, if you can make personal accomodations for someone, you try to if reasonable.

    However, health care is not the hotel industry that has to remember who pays the bills to decide how to make their decisions. These decisions are based on law and not person whims of who or what the patient likes the best. If the patient can make an appointment with the caregiver they like the best, all the better. But the patient can not demand who they want.

    The bottom line is these decisions are ultimately decided by the medical profession as to how they play out. If the patients gets their way in the process, great. If the patient doesn’t, it is becausee the health care system felt different from the patient. The patient does not have all the rights, nor are they trained to know what is always right.

    The medical and nursing professions have been trained and have been given the legal obligation to exercise these rights to the best of their ability. It is the health care provider, not the patient, that is accountable for deciding what they think the best care is and who is qualified to give it. The patent’s right is to accept the care or not.

  74. bryn hagan Says:

    the common sense is that whether we like it or not, gender is an issue. We can pretend it isn’t, but that’s all we’re doing, pretending.
    If we go back to the old male catherterising a female (this doesn’t tend to be an emergency, unless of course you’re a poor old fella with an enlarged prostate and a litre or two of fluid to get rid of), but I generally don’t catheterise women. 1 – large majortiy of women would feel uncomfortable no matter how professional you are
    2- you need a chaperone, just like male doctors do when examining a women’s private parts. So why take up the resources of two nurses instead of one
    3-Juliet has it right in that the huge majority of abuse if by men of women. Fuck, I don’t like it, it’s a horrible fact, but that’s the way it is. I’m not risking my neck doing unchaperoned, non-urgent procedures on women who really don’t want me there in the first place.

    It’s common bloody sense.

    On re-reading Juliet’s post she does come across a bit bad when she says “I don’t believe men change just because they go to medical school or become nurses – I’ve spoken to psychologists at the Board who’ve spoken of the desire to control and have power over women, access and opportunity, sexual/power gratification conducting pelvic and breast exams and even men who dislike or hate women…” In fact this is more than a bit off.

    The point I’m making though is that gender does, matter no matter how professional we are.

  75. C.V. Compton Shaw Says:

    Men should avoid American women professionally, politically, culturally, personally, and otherwise. This includes nursing. If they do the same, they will be much happier personally and more successful professionaly.
    In the USA, the following politically correct, illogical, discriminatory, and oppressive mantra applies (inclusive of nursing). “Men are not discriminated against in employment and education. Therefore, they do not need laws protecting them against said discrimination. Women (and minorities) are discriminated against in employment and education. Therefore, they need laws which give them preferrential discriminatory treatment over men in employment and education.”
    If a male (especially a caucasian male) does not publically and loudly proclaim this discriminatory mantra, he will be subject to further discrimination!
    Nursing is not a profession for “gentleman”.

  76. MCKean Says:

    Well, I was ok with male nurses and docs as I did not have much choice growing up. Even after a doctor did an intimate exam I latter found out was for his own benefit, as he was not supposed to do GYN exams, I still took it one person at a time. Then after having male students, nurses, techs, and docs perform exams, procedures, and surgeries against my will and informed consent, after being lied to, gang up on, violated, abused, and infected, NOW, I will not allow any male to perform any sort of intimate exam or exposing procedure, I will not tolerate students or trainees, I will not be told to undress in front of residents and students, actually, as it is I am only willing to get limited care of any sort from physicians. Ghost surgeries, non-informed, non-consentual exams and procedures, disrespect of patients wishes and limitations in non-emergency situations as left me very bitter. Less trusting of ALL medical providers and particular discust for men and surgeons (of any sex).
    Just as Dr. Sims’ violation of the black women he purchased to perform repeated surgeries on against their will committed “medical rape” so does any practioner who performs an intimate exam against a woman’s wishes or conscious, unsedated choice.

    If male nurses want to be trust by women patients they have to change they way women are treated by health practioners from top to bottom.

  77. bryn Says:

    well, we’ve got the extremes now. Mckean has had an awful time, but you can’t generalise.
    I’ve said this before, but I was accidentally placed in a gynae ward as a new grad. No interview. The panel thought my name was a womens name. They just weren’t familiar with Welsh names.
    Anyway, I really didn’t see any ‘private parts’. Hell is was so conscious of being a young male in that environment I couldn’t wait to leave. All I had to do was survive six months then be rotated out to the gen med/surg ward.
    I will say that I patients were very suprised when and relieved when I would find ways to get things done without exposing them. A classic example is the patient with the PV bleed. Some nurses would pull back the blankets and have a look. I always left a brown, non see through bag they could discreetly leave their pads in so I cough gauge amount of blood loss.
    In an emergency situation, I remember one young 17yr old who at the start of my shift started bleeding heavily. After taking obs, history, it wasn’t hard to figure out she had a ruptured ectopic, literally right before me. Her consultant had just started his rounds to I ran to him and he took one look at her, the obs, her history, gently touched her on the stomach and said ‘you’ve got a bit of blood in there, we’ll get you better right now’ and she was wheeled straight into theatre.
    My point is, even in a critical situation, you really don’t need to go looking, poking, prodding etc.
    I was relieved when transferred out of there. It did help me learn to improvise ways to protect a patients, especially a female patients dignity.
    So I guess it wasn’t all bad if I learned something.
    I still won’t do intimate procedures on women though, and in my earlier post I’ve explained why.

  78. Mr Ian Says:

    My goodness.
    I’ll begin with a word aside…
    Juliet – please don’t hurt him!

    (Allow me)

    “Gender first..blah blah..blah..”:

    You are undoubtedly a blatant latent misogynist.
    You have unequivocally undeniably and absolutely not the first idea of what you are talking about.

    Let me demonstrate in mostly small words:

    1. Juliet has not stated anywhere that sexual preference applies to choice of lawyers. She, at least, has remained on topic.

    2. Juliet has also stated – (and Bryn – you kinda mis-read the point Juliet was making I think) – that psychologists have discussed with her how SOME men have the desire to control and have power over women, access and opportunity, sexual/power gratification conducting pelvic and breast exams and even men who dislike or hate women… and that THOSE men seldom change.
    Juliet is not disclosing anything from any client she spoke to – she was relating what psychologists had told her.
    Please read more carefully before engaging your emotions.

    3. Likewise – your whole point about psychologists not doing pelvic exams etc – Juliet never said that.
    The study of sexual offending falls heavily under psychology – forensic psychology. They have spent many years studying the behaviour of men (and women) in violence and sexual (and sexually violent) behaviour. If you think the psychologist is wrong with what s/he said – that men can be sexually deviant and tend to remain so – then go ahead – tell the world.
    Incidentally psychologsists are not all PhD.

    4. What the psychologist explained to Juliet is true. I know. I’ve worked with them and the guy who helped devise and pilot the SVR20 – “Sexual Violence Risk” questionnaire for use in sexual offenders.

    5. Cripes – I could go on forever about your post…

    … so I will…

    6. The man would be seen as the pig he was acting like. She is talking like the same pig.
    Actually, if she were she’d be a sow, not a pig. Not that you’re being male chauvinist by reassigning her gender. Well not much.

    ok.. a fair bit.

    7. I’ll answer this in two parts:
    Who would go through medical or nursing school so they could get a sexual/power gratification from preforming a pelvic or breast exam and then throw their education away by bragging about it to an attorney?
    You didn’t read the comment properly.

    Her story does not add up in any way.
    You didn’t read the post properly.

    8. In case you missed that – You didn’t read the post properly.

    9. (You’ve fairly embarrassed yourself to be honest with your ignorance)

    10. She has, for whatever reasons she doesn’t tell us, very serious mental health issues that need to be addressed so she can function in society without making such claims that she is an attorney and such claims people in the medical profession would feel this way and bold enough to make such statements.
    Fortunately, I am an Authorised Mental Health Practitioner – which kinda invests me with a certain power (and responsibility – I’ll teach you that word next time).
    As such an AMHP – I am confident to suggest… strike that from the record…. I will tell you – Juliet is not the one who appears to have the mental health problem.

    You appear to have some sort of “sense of entitlement” that your professional qualification permits you to determine who does what to someone else. You also appear to have a “My Doctor is a God complex” and they can do no wrong.

    What is most scary is that – with your demonstrably and utterly deplorable ignorance of any understanding of the issues – you are still allowed to function as a nurse.

    Just as a final query to your rants…

    We were debating ‘gender’ – not nursing competence – but anyhow….

    You are suggesting that preventing a male nurse from attending a female patient is potentially not allowing her to have the most competent practitioner?

    Is that based on some belief that male nurses are more competent than female nurses?

    Are you also suggesting that in fact – since I thought a nurse was a nurse was a nurse – that female nurses are incompetent?

    Any nurse attending a patient – whether male or female is either competent or incompetent.
    If someone ‘more competent’ should attend then you are stating the other nurse is incompetent.

    I bet you think you’re the most competent nurse ever ever ever, huh?

    (I have typed this slow as I don’t think you can read very fast)

  79. Mr Ian Says:

    C.V. Comptom:
    I would concede that some extremes of the ‘anti-discrimination’ laws have left me wondering if one day, the only person being discriminated against is the one without the anti-discriminatory law.
    However, and in specific response to your comment – If a male (especially a caucasian male) does not publically and loudly proclaim this discriminatory mantra, he will be subject to further discrimination! – I would like to suggest – “Ya boo ~ sucks to be you”.

    I’m happy to accept the next 200 years of any reverse discrimination – for the not nice things, the awful things and the atrocities that have befallen those who have been so discriminated against.

    Let me try this analogy instead:
    If a bully spends years bullying kids at his/her school – they may even end up a delinquent – then they may break the law, rob houses, steal cars, hurt people and so on.
    So we lock them up in jail.
    How do you feel about all those criminals who then claim ‘injustice’ and unfair treatment because they don’t have a TV or aircon or because they can’t find a job on release?

    I’d guess you’d feel – “Ya boo ~ sucks to be you” – because they deserved it – for what they did.

    Suck it up and quit whining.
    We earned it.
    We deserve it.

    I’m not missing out much at all.
    And nothing I don’t deserve to miss out on.

    (But I do hate when she won’t mop the floors when they’re dirty or have my shirts ready for work when I need them…. bloody equal rights crap, eh?)

  80. Mr Ian Says:

    MCKean: Saddened to read of your experiences – but you present the very purpose of this debate.
    It seems unfortunately that my male colleagues do not believe females require that kind of protection – or even consideration.
    I know – I hope – they are in the minority.

    But you have also succinctly hit upon the crux of the matter:
    If male nurses want to be trust by women patients they have to change they way women are treated by health practioners from top to bottom.

    Unfortunately, some males believe it is for the woman to simply learn to trust the man (and, no doubt, to get over their ‘little neurotic issues’) – and the man has no reason to change at all because they don’t see/know/understand/care what’s wrong.

  81. Nurse First, Gender does not play a part. Says:

    I’m sorry if I have contributed to some attraction those with serious mental health issues have found here. I hope those thinking this is an apporopate place to vent their cries for help, will find the help they need where it can be given. Hopefully any additional hysterical rants can be corrected by someone else.

    Unless a patient needs physical help, it is not lawful for a patient of any sex to be asked to undress with a health care provider of any sex in the room. Although not manatory by law, it is recommended that two health care providers are present for any personal exam of any sex. Therefore, any female catheterizing a female should not do it alone. A male getting a female to be present is not saving any staff, they are doing what is recommended under any circumstance. And for the record, in the USA, health care providers do not purchase patients to perform repeated surgeries.

    Those of you managing to find this forum in desperate need of mental health help, I hope you realize you need to move on and find the help where is can be given. That place is not here.

  82. bryn hagan Says:

    um, Ian, you’re right, I didn’t even really read the whole of Juliets post. I have now and she is off her rocker.
    I still won’t do the intimiate procedures if i don’t have to, but it’s never caused a problem for me or my colleagues. i return the favor when they have something they don’t like and i can help out.
    But those two women did sound a bit worrying, in fact more than a bit. One sounded crazed and the other sounds like she’s suffered.
    Anyway, good to hear from you Ian. I have to confess to jumping on the bandwagon and opening the whole debate up again with my blase careless comment, just for the hell of it.

    Sorry guys. And

  83. bryn hagan Says:

    Oh, also, the following conversations were a bit above my head, some seroius thoughts going on, but Ian, nice comeback.

  84. Nurse First, Gender does not play a part. Says:

    @Ian,

    I didn’t think would comment again, but I wanted the enjoyment of responding to your assessment of me:

    1. Juliet has not stated anywhere that sexual preference applies to choice of lawyers. She, at least, has remained on topic.

    Response: My example was on topic of discrimination due to sex. I never stated her preference applied to lawyers. My statement was to see the sexism if lawyers were chosen by their sex instead of their ability. That is the very topic here.

    2. Juliet has also stated – (and Bryn – you kinda mis-read the point Juliet was making I think) – that psychologists have discussed with her how SOME men have the desire to control and have power over women, access and opportunity, sexual/power gratification conducting pelvic and breast exams and even men who dislike or hate women… and that THOSE men seldom change.
    Juliet is not disclosing anything from any client she spoke to – she was relating what psychologists had told her.
    Please read more carefully before engaging your emotions.

    My response: You need to read more carefully before you respond. You are putting words in her mouth so you have what you need to defend what she said and then you expect me to read those same words that she never wrote. So, please read more carefully before engaging your emotions.

    3. Likewise – your whole point about psychologists not doing pelvic exams etc – Juliet never said that.

    My response: Fair enough, she stated psychologists had “spoken of the desire” to do these exams while having the feelings they stated.

    The study of sexual offending falls heavily under psychology – forensic psychology. They have spent many years studying the behaviour of men (and women) in violence and sexual (and sexually violent) behaviour. If you think the psychologist is wrong with what s/he said – that men can be sexually deviant and tend to remain so – then go ahead – tell the world.

    My response: Her point said nothing of their qualifications to make these statements, you have stated this is what she was stating. As far as abuse goes, there is plenty of blame to go around. But, which sex has the greater amount of blame is off topic of this conversation so I’ll leave that for another time.

    Incidentally psychologsists are not all PhD.

    My response: Why would a psychologist without a PhD be at a medical board meeting? Are they even covered under the medical board to begin with?

    4. What the psychologist explained to Juliet is true. I know. I’ve worked with them and the guy who helped devise and pilot the SVR20 – “Sexual Violence Risk” questionnaire for use in sexual offenders.

    My response: What Juliet wrote and what you wrote have nothing to do with each other unless I’m to believe your version of her story over the one she gave.

    5. Cripes – I could go on forever about your post…

    … so I will…

    My response: Let’s have it big guy…

    6. The man would be seen as the pig he was acting like. She is talking like the same pig.
    Actually, if she were she’d be a sow, not a pig. Not that you’re being male chauvinist by reassigning her gender. Well not much.

    My response: Are you stating a woman, if anything, is a cow? I don’t think you are being very nice there.

    ok.. a fair bit.

    7. I’ll answer this in two parts:
    Who would go through medical or nursing school so they could get a sexual/power gratification from preforming a pelvic or breast exam and then throw their education away by bragging about it to an attorney?
    You didn’t read the comment properly.

    My response: You didn’t read her comment properly.

    Her story does not add up in any way.
    You didn’t read the post properly.

    My response: You didn’t read her comment properly.

    8. In case you missed that – You didn’t read the post properly.

    My response: You could get off of this one if you would just go back and read her comment again.

    9. (You’ve fairly embarrassed yourself to be honest with your ignorance)

    My response: I don’t feel embarrassed. I think I would have to feel embarrassed before being possible to embarrass myself. However, if you are trying to put thoughts in other reader’s heads, you might have succeeded, but I wouldn’t know without asking them in the same way you wouldn’t know if I have embarrassed myself without asking me.

    10. She has, for whatever reasons she doesn’t tell us, very serious mental health issues that need to be addressed so she can function in society without making such claims that she is an attorney and such claims people in the medical profession would feel this way and bold enough to make such statements.
    Fortunately, I am an Authorised Mental Health Practitioner – which kinda invests me with a certain power (and responsibility – I’ll teach you that word next time).

    My response: You are a male nurse stating you are invested “with a certain power”. I’ll leave that one to your own reflection. and a possible line for a “super hero” to use in a comic book.

    As such an AMHP – I am confident to suggest… strike that from the record…. I will tell you – Juliet is not the one who appears to have the mental health problem.

    You appear to have some sort of “sense of entitlement” that your professional qualification permits you to determine who does what to someone else.

    My response: My professional qualifications demand by law that I delegate the most qualified person to do the job. Doing any less would not be following the nurse practice act in the state I practice in. This is a legal agreement I’ve made with the citizens of my state in exchange for the privilege to hold a licence and practice as a nurse.

    You also appear to have a “My Doctor is a God complex” and they can do no wrong.

    My response: Where dd I say that? Maybe you need to read my comment again.

    What is most scary is that – with your demonstrably and utterly deplorable ignorance of any understanding of the issues – you are still allowed to function as a nurse.

    My response: I guess “demonstrably and utterly deplorable ignorance of any understanding of the issues” would depend on how you look at things. I guess I could come back with “I know you are, but what am I”, but why don’t we just drop this one.

    Just as a final query to your rants…

    We were debating ‘gender’ – not nursing competence – but anyhow….

    My response: My debate is competence does not depend on gender.

    You are suggesting that preventing a male nurse from attending a female patient is potentially not allowing her to have the most competent practitioner?

    My response: It would depend on the staff available that day. It could be the male or the female. It is these differences in abilities between staff that nurses are required by law to delegate the best person for the job.

    Is that based on some belief that male nurses are more competent than female nurses?

    My response: You are getting a little carried away here. All my statements are about quality of care given, not sex of the caregiver, being the best predictor of outcome.

    Are you also suggesting that in fact – since I thought a nurse was a nurse was a nurse – that female nurses are incompetent?

    My response: You are digging here. Show me where I stated anywhere that I felt female nurses are incompetent any more than males. If you read my comment again you might see this is a fabrication in your own mind to win an argument instead of discussing the issue.

    Any nurse attending a patient – whether male or female is either competent or incompetent.
    If someone ‘more competent’ should attend then you are stating the other nurse is incompetent.

    My response: This difference in competency is why nurses are given the legal responsibility to delegate. Maybe I’ll discuss what responsibility is later.

    I bet you think you’re the most competent nurse ever ever ever, huh?

    Response: Some might say I should hold off and bet so I could take your money before answering, but I’ll just tell you up front I’ve never felt any nurse was the most competent at all nursing tasks. Each having our own strengths and weaknesses is why delegation is part of a nurses responsibility.

    (I have typed this slow as I don’t think you can read very fast

    My response: I’m assuming this is a joke to end things off with?

  85. Mr Ian Says:

    Now we’re really getting into the Alpha male stuff.

    bryn: I’m surprised by your comments. You’re invalidating someone else’s experiences +/or beliefs.

    NFGS: Your entrenched position is clear.
    However, you have confounded the issue by injecting ‘competence’ as being a salient feature.
    No one has suggested they would prefer an incompetent nurse so your ‘most competent’ argument is redundant.
    In it’s most simplistic form:
    If given two competent nurses to delegate to deliver patient care – one male and one female – and the patient requests a female – would you do use that information in your decision?
    That’s all is being asked.
    I am presuming you would accommodate the patient.

    Or are you suggesting in these circumstances the patient is merely being sexist – rather than exercising choice?

    The extension of the argument is – how far should we go to do what we do in the simple version?

    We have two individuals with their own identity.
    One woman.
    One male nurse.

    The dilemma:
    “Woman” asserts the right to choose what gender person attends her care – especially intimate care.
    “Male nurse” asserts the right to practise nursing on whatever gender they are presented with – gender sensitivity is irrelevant.

    The woman has stated – in emergencies and where practicality simply will not allow – they understand and are more grateful to be alive than to have been devoid of care over a ‘gender issue’.

    “Male nurse” has stated – and so you should be.

    Where you and I are failing to agree – is that I understand the imposition male health care presents to female patients; whereas you understand the decision for a female patient to not want a male staff to be sexist.

    The patient is voluntary. This is not a contract.

    Indeed, if they were Indian and preferred an Indian doctor – I would see to doing it as far as reasonably practical. I would do the same for male patients wanting male doctors or nurses.

    Indeed, I would do the same for white ‘English is my first language’ patients wanting white ‘English is my first language’ doctors. Unfortunately this is mostly seen as being racist – and perhaps sometimes is – but the patient makes a choice. If they do so politely and without malice, then I don’t see why not.

    Perhaps I am being judgmental on you but I see your trenchant views on women to typically display the blinkered ignorance of the facts that that females remain a vulnerable group; they continue to suffer oppressive bigotry and are far more likely to have been sexually abused as a child/adolescent/adult than a male.
    Being a woman, even today, still comes with a clearly disproportionate imbalance.

    Do your knuckles drag when you walk upright?

    Or are you still working on “upright”?

  86. Mr Ian Says:

    I was going to ignore responding to your other ‘response’ … i even tried to ‘therpay’ myself out of it by writing another response instead… but I failed…
    It’s like a child tugging at your ankle…. demanding attention.

    I apologise to ‘the moderator’ for having to read and discern my posts ;o)

    Response: My example was on topic of discrimination due to sex. I never stated her preference applied to lawyers. My statement was to see the sexism if lawyers were chosen by their sex instead of their ability. That is the very topic here.
    I’ve answered this in the comment above. It’s a confounder. The argument is not at all about choosing between competence and gender. It is simply about gender preference.

    My response: You need to read more carefully before you respond. You are putting words in her mouth so you have what you need to defend what she said and then you expect me to read those same words that she never wrote. So, please read more carefully before engaging your emotions.

    I’m sorry you lack the ability to ‘infer’. Juliet is not ‘men bashing’ -
    I do however, see a place for male nurses…just as their is a place for male doctors – but they should NEVER be imposed on a female patient.
    Her decision to never want to see me as her health care provider is her choice alone. I have no problem with that. I have nothing to feel challenged about and I respect any patient’s right to make such a decision. I suspect it’s a decision she thought about and the risks (given the evidence of the Medical Board experience) has tipped her towards taking no chances.

    My response: Fair enough, she stated psychologists had “spoken of the desire” to do these exams while having the feelings they stated.
    Yes, but I’m not sure wether you’re able to understand the comments are made in the context of the argument – and this is not what she, the Medical Board or psychologists sit and ruiminate about all day.

    My response: Her point said nothing of their qualifications to make these statements, you have stated this is what she was stating. As far as abuse goes, there is plenty of blame to go around. But, which sex has the greater amount of blame is off topic of this conversation so I’ll leave that for another time.
    Having experienced Medical Board practise I would rather accept such an empirical opinion over your speculative one.
    As far as abuse goes – it is not at all off topic.
    Abuse is probably the greatest reason females would elect female health care provider. That and simple sense of dignity.
    Doesn’t mean women who accept male health care providers have no dignity. We’re all different in our values.

    My response: Why would a psychologist without a PhD be at a medical board meeting? Are they even covered under the medical board to begin with?
    I actually would accept it is most likely the psychologist at the Medical Board would have a PhD. Tho it’s not a given.
    I’m not sure what you are getting at with being ‘covered’ by the Medical Board. I don’t think you understand what the Medical Board even is.
    They are there to carry out a function of psychology advisor to the Medical Board. They are not ‘under’ the Medical Board they ARE (part of) the Medical Board.
    Your BON will also have ‘advisors’ who are not part of the profession – they are part of the process.

    My response: What Juliet wrote and what you wrote have nothing to do with each other unless I’m to believe your version of her story over the one she gave.
    I think you fail to understand by lack of knowledge or experience what was written behind Juliet’s lines. I’m sure she could supply more detail – as could I – but really it isn’t something that needs to be aired publically. But essentially, there are some evil people in the world. Some of them are placed in a position of trust, authority and power – which they then proceed to abuse.

    My response: Let’s have it big guy…
    Now you’re being sizeist

    My response: Are you stating a woman, if anything, is a cow? I don’t think you are being very nice there.
    No, I’m stating your foot is on fire.

    wtf?

    My response: You didn’t read her comment properly.
    The word SOME was not there – I added that – it was a presumption of fact that Juliet does not believe all men are evil sex crazed monsters. Tho her previous comment: I do however, see a place for male nurses…just as their is a place for male doctors – but they should NEVER be imposed on a female patient. would suggest she isn’t being a radical feminist.
    Or raving lunatic.

    My response: You could get off of this one if you would just go back and read her comment again.
    I think you have to work on your ‘comprehension’ skills.

    My response: I don’t feel embarrassed. I think I would have to feel embarrassed before being possible to embarrass myself. However, if you are trying to put thoughts in other reader’s heads, you might have succeeded, but I wouldn’t know without asking them in the same way you wouldn’t know if I have embarrassed myself without asking me.
    Most scary.
    Indicative of concrete thinking, egocentricity and lack of emapthy.
    Your 15% towards sociopath.

    My response: You are a male nurse stating you are invested “with a certain power”. I’ll leave that one to your own reflection. and a possible line for a “super hero” to use in a comic book.
    Again, not sure wtf you’re on about.
    My gender has nothing to do with the process of AMHP work. There are as many female AMHPs.

    My response: My professional qualifications demand by law that I delegate the most qualified person to do the job. Doing any less would not be following the nurse practice act in the state I practice in. This is a legal agreement I’ve made with the citizens of my state in exchange for the privilege to hold a licence and practice as a nurse.
    Here we go again –
    Two nurses – both comeptent….
    Your Code of Ethics also demands you consider the patient’s right of choice.
    Since you recognise your position is one of privilege – can you work out who gives you that privilege?

    My response: Where dd I say that? Maybe you need to read my comment again.

    Your comment:
    “Who would go through medical or nursing school so they could get a sexual/power gratification from preforming a pelvic or breast exam and then throw their education away by bragging about it to an attorney?”
    Are you suggesting that anyone who goes through med/nurs school is not going to be a sexual predator ever?
    Are you really this naiive?

    My response: I guess “demonstrably and utterly deplorable ignorance of any understanding of the issues” would depend on how you look at things. I guess I could come back with “I know you are, but what am I”, but why don’t we just drop this one.
    We don’t drop this one because it’s all about values and attitudes.
    Yours stinks.

    My response: My debate is competence does not depend on gender.
    Well fine – go have that debate on your head on your own.
    No one else is having that debate.

    My response: It would depend on the staff available that day. It could be the male or the female. It is these differences in abilities between staff that nurses are required by law to delegate the best person for the job.
    And gender is also a consideration, right?

    My response: You are getting a little carried away here. All my statements are about quality of care given, not sex of the caregiver, being the best predictor of outcome.
    Are you sure you’re in the right thread?
    Maybe it was me?
    Is this the ‘Confronting nursing competencies myth’ thread?

    My response: You are digging here. Show me where I stated anywhere that I felt female nurses are incompetent any more than males. If you read my comment again you might see this is a fabrication in your own mind to win an argument instead of discussing the issue.
    It’s an extrapolation – not a fabrication.
    Given two competent nurses, one male one female…

    My response: This difference in competency is why nurses are given the legal responsibility to delegate. Maybe I’ll discuss what responsibility is later.
    No one is disputing or even discussing a nurses legal responsibility in delegating.
    (*checks thread topic again*)

    Response: Some might say I should hold off and bet so I could take your money before answering, but I’ll just tell you up front I’ve never felt any nurse was the most competent at all nursing tasks. Each having our own strengths and weaknesses is why delegation is part of a nurses responsibility.
    Cool answer.
    I’m guessing you don’t get delegated “Ethics in Nursing”?

    “(I have typed this slow as I don’t think you can read very fast)”
    My response: I’m assuming this is a joke to end things off with?

    No, I’m deadly serious.
    I’m thinking your blood is simply rushing to the wrong place when you get all excited (as is the “male” condition) and you’re experiencing a transient case of ‘stupid’ caused by lack of oxygen to the brain.

  87. bryn hagan Says:

    um, not sure about invalidating anything. Things seem to be getting a bit out of hand.

  88. Nurse First, Gender does not play a part. Says:

    @Ian,

    Although I could, I don’t feel like showing you line by line just how off the mark you are. All your remarks depend on your mind reading ability instead of what was said. And for you to seriously state you know how much blood is going to my brain is not evidenced based nursing in any way. It is a childish come back. Those with with wittiest comeback doesn’t win the discussion anymore than the strongest person in a fight means they are right. You go by the facts and research, not guessing what the other person said and then put down any one that doesn’t want to solve a problem in your way of thinking. As Sergent Friday would say “Just the facts mam”.

    As I stated before, doctors took sexism out of medicine and the nursing profession needs to do the same and take sexism out of nursing. Until then, applications to nursing schools will remain to be seen as one for a female to fill out and the male is the exception. Doctors were professional enough to find a way to do away with that crap and nurses can do the same. Society now understands their doctor can be of any sex (extreme exceptions to any rule in life granted) and society can adjust to understanding their nurse can be of any sex. It is the nursing profession to set the example, not for the public to demand it first. All minorities have had to fight for equal rights and status with their minority status finally put aside and not considered by the general population. The general population never just handed it to them. Until nurses take a stand and say we are not about the sex we are, but about the quality of care we give, the general population will continue to see the sex of the nurse as an important issue. Be nurse enough to take a stand to get sexism out of our profession. You

  89. Mr Ian Says:

    Those with with wittiest comeback doesn’t win the discussion anymore than the strongest person in a fight means they are right.
    You’re stuttering in your type… are you nervous?

    I’m not trying to win with with wit with wit.
    I’m just entertaining myself while you raise silly ideas.

    Like this one:
    You go by the facts and research, not guessing what the other person said
    I’m not actually guessing what was said. I’m knowing what is right about her point.
    I’m not sure what facts and research you’re referring to but I’ll see if I can dig a few up for you.

    Fact: Male health care providers have abused their positions of trust and sexually assaulted female patients.
    http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=1461

    Fact: Females are 6 times more likely to be raped than males.
    http://www.aafp.org/afp/980915ap/petter.html

    Fact: A sexual assault occurs once every 6.4 minutes in the United States.
    [ibid]

    Fact: Some of those assaults are carried out by medical staff in the course of giving ‘care’.

    http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1207/478271.html

    http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/health/doctor-sexually-assaulted-teen-in-hospital-$1121088.htm

    http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-48027956.html

    These are the facts.

    Please supply me with some facts about how gender-specific nursing has caused the poor male nurse to suffer a lifetime of PTSD?

    Your assertion that this is about ‘sexism in nursing’ is atrocious. You have clearly no idea – and I pray you never have to find out – what it is like to be a survivor of sexual or sexist abuse.

    All minorities have had to fight for equal rights and status with their minority status finally put aside and not considered by the general population
    So what are survivors of abuse if not a minority group?
    Are they allowed to stand up and assert their perceived right?

    Already disempowered, devalued and desecrated.
    Often traumatised beyond the consolable.

    As I stated before, doctors took sexism out of medicine and the nursing profession needs to do the same
    No they haven’t.
    You’re talking out ya butt.
    And where’s your research and evidence?

    Patients can still request a male or female GP or attending. They can also still refuse care from anyone last time I checked.

    Until nurses take a stand..

    Oh purrrlease.

    As was said earlier by MCKean:
    If male nurses want to be trust by women patients they have to change they way women are treated by health practioners from top to bottom.

    Don’t take a stand.
    Take a seat.
    Read, think and learn.

    This is what you are saying:

    Because you feel unfairly and sexist-ly treated, you want to tell women they have no right to health care unless they accept that a male nurse may look at them naked and touch them intimately.

    Is that your non-sexist desire?

  90. Rollingdice Says:

    I find the idea that someone like Nurse First could actually be a nurse with that attitude very, very worrying (though not surprising – I’m not that naive). Perhaps he thinks we live in some egalitarian utopia. Well, wake up – we don’t. We live in a world where people have many different attitudes, behaviours and values, and the medical profession needs to reflect and accommodate that. Nurses, doctors and other staff are there to *look after* people at what can be the most difficult and stressful time in their lives – not make it worse by humiliating them. Some people are not comfortable with being exposed in front of members of the opposite sex; perhaps if the world was a giant nudist colony this would be different, but it isn’t. Medical staff are there for the benefit of the patient, not the other way round – remember that.

    I have a vested interest in this, as my partner (and myself, by extension) suffered from an incidence of malpractice. She visited her GP, at a new clinic, who performed a non-clinically-necessary ECG on her, purely for reasons of his own. Needless to say, she found this rather distressing. I find it somewhat improbable that a female doctor would have done this, nor would my partner have been as embarrassed by it. While perhaps not nearly as awful as the cases that make headlines, if she needs medical care in the future, she will insist on being seen only by female staff – nurses and doctors – and I will support her in that fully. If you, as a medical professional, suggest she should accept care from men ‘because they’re not all like that’, I suggest you find another job.

  91. Niall Baggot Says:

    Nursing was the first time as white male heterosexual that I encountered the prejudice on daily basis that minorities regularly feel. Just tedious mostly. Seeing the eyes wince and jaws drop when you walk and you clarify that your not the “Doctor”. As a male, you just avoid community hospitals and stick with teaching hospitals where legions of poking male med students have already desensitized Grandma/Past abuse victims/Frank the homophobic tank; and I’m more than happy to swap male/female patients at the slightest perception of paranoia. Of course, the great thing about nursing is the career opportunities but the worst thing is the lack of collegiality/support to make those opportunities a reality. One of those instances being from colleagues who see you as “male [power] threat” due to various sources of emotional insecurity re personal power. Everyone needs to realize that just as mutt dogs are stronger/smarter than pure breds, so also a diversity of strong traits in the workplace strengthens our profession in a time when we must ensure our profession is not a casualty of Washington/Wall St, as well that our personal job not a casualty of our own insecurities re each other. p.s. Network on facebook.com The technology has arrived!

  92. dave Says:

    To all who have posted on this thread,

    I have enjoyed watching this conversation unfold, but now it’s time to turn it off. The mission of RealityRN is to help new nurses with the challenges of integrating into the workforce. My sense is that with each new comment, we are at the point of diminishing returns.

    So, we will not be allowing any more posts on this article. Thanks for your contributions.

    Dave Goetz
    Founder
    RealityRN.com

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